Let's Talk About Worship: Theology in Action

Tony Caffey: welcome back to theology in action my name is Tony Caffey I'm the senior pastor of verse by verse Fellowship in San Antonio Texas and I'm here with my co-labor in Christ Jesus Derek flowers who's our worship leader at verse by verse Derek thanks for being here

Derek Flowers: Yeah thanks for having me Tony

Tony Caffey: Glad you're here we're going to talk about worship we're going to talk about praise and these are things you've been doing your whole life and you've given your life to right?

Derek Flowers: Yeah yeah

Tony Caffey: I appreciate the skill that you bring to your task here at church and I know these are theologically even topics that we want to unpack a little bit today so here's my first question for you okay Derek you're you're the worship leader here at verse by verse that's your title what is worship Give me a definition of that and who we worshiping?

Derek Flowers: Yeah so the well the second part of your question who we worship is God that's the most simplest answer we worship God

. Um which I'll unpack that a little bit more here in a second but um one of the best scriptures um and I have it pulled up here uh can be found in Romans chapter 12 1-2 and it says I appeal to you therefore Brothers by the mercies of God to present yourselves your bodies as a Living Sacrifice holy and acceptable to God which is your spiritual worship so that's the end of verse one and so we can ask the question well how do we do that how do we present ourselves as a Living Sacrifice in verse 2 it says do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind and my testing you may know what is the will of God and what is good and acceptable yeah and so in that first verse the word that they use um which you'll you'll like this this is your up your alley the Greek word that they use for worship is latreya that's right and it means adoration means service it means uh to express adoration it's a service versus an action word so we see that worship is presenting ourselves to God as a Living Sacrifice it's not you know music it's not anything else like that but it's actually an action it's an act of worship and uh it's forsaking our preferences in light of his and putting him first um back to who we worship the easy answer the simple answer is we worship God right u

Tony Caffey: Our creator

Derek Flowers: Exactly and so when we get in trouble is when we have other things in our lives that we make a priority over our relationship with God and so instead of spending time with him spending time in his presence whether it's on a personal level you know in your prayer closet as a lot of people say or in a corporate setting instead of spending time with God in his presence we uh say well my hobbies are going to come first or even your relationship with your spouse which is highly important but if we put that before God all of a sudden that takes a higher precedence in our lives and we're worshiping those things instead of God whether we realize it or not

Tony Caffey: Yeah lots of little G gods in our lives that we've got to work through

Derek Flowers: Totally

Tony Caffey: Um yeah so I appreciate the clarification you're a musician a very good musician and you lead singing at church which is I love to sing I mean singing is um there's this thing that God has created inside of us where we can talk and then we can change our vocal cords in such a way that we're we're uh projecting music and a different thing and there is something emotional in that there's our affections are captured in a certain way yeah and we even see patterns in the Old Testament in the New Testament where we're supposed to harness this power of singing and making music for the worship of God but we need to be careful to not say that is worship or that's the only expression worship because we even see that in in Hebrews chapter two with with Jesus singing leading us and singing to God his praises and yeah you we see it all through in the Psalms of you know commissioning us commissioning us commanding us to to sing and to sing out praises and seeing with a Joyful Noise and it's all good but yeah singing isn't worship like I've been asked this question several times like well is you know worship music or and sometimes we put that title on that genre of worship music even though music isn't worship and worship is a music it's a great Avenue it's a great tool that we have music is because music appeals to our emotions music moves us um a great composer jocomo Puccini and I may be pronouncing that wrong but he's an Italian composer uh he's a composed one particular song that would

Derek Flowers: Probably be his most noticeable song is Nessun Dorma and towards the end of the song it's really big and the uh it's a melt in her voice and the the music just does this magical thing in in the music and people are moved to tears even though half the con the crowd has no idea what their the person's singing because he's in a different language yeah he's singing in Italian and so American audiences are not gonna really know what he's saying unless they have a some kind of transcript but even so they're moved to tears because the music is so well done and it moves us um which is good um God created that inside of us

Tony Caffey: Exactly

Derek Flowers: We're emotional beings so we can't deny that we can't uh just completely throw that out the window but that can't also be our Focus either when we're you know leading people into worship and when we're worshiping we have to recognize it for the tool that it is but know that we worship God because he's infinitely worthy and that music is a great tool for us a great vehicle for us

Tony Caffey: Yeah so the and so incumbent upon you as our worship leader is you are tapping into this thing that that is very emotional with within us it does grab our heartstrings so to speak and you're you're trying to link that with truth so and that's that's an important combination you know uh what you know Jesus would talk about a spirit and Truth the combination there where there's a spiritedness in what we're doing with our hearts and yet you know the lyrical content that you're choosing every Sunday we're working together on that it needs to be accurate so that we're not emotionally drawn or expressing something that's untrue or that's uh you know worse than that you know in error in terms of How It's describing right the Lord so how do you go about that?

Derek Flowers: So yeah so there's different different little things little nuances in the music that can cause an emotional response that have nothing to do with truth or anything simply just the Dynamics of a song from a crescendo to bringing it down into building it back up again creates this this emotional response and like we said earlier with being emotional beings we you know we respond to things with different emotions whether we're actively thinking about it or not so a lot of times when we're worshiping we're responding with this sort of love and there's this joy and there's this almost triumphant feeling when we're expressing love and adoration um but it's not yeah like you said it's not focusing on that and so making sure that words that are catchy words that uh may get you to fluffy emotionalism yeah yeah words that will get your attention hype words if you will but it's sticking to you know songs that are biblically true and biblically sound and so like when I when I pick out songs it's making sure that do these line up with the Bible is this biblically sound um and it's making sure that we're seeing truth we're singing about what Christ has done on the cross for us we're singing about God's goodness and who God says that he is and it's usually communication and language that is a what we call a man to God language

Tony Caffey: Command again

Derek Flowers: So man to God

Tony Caffey: Oh man to God yeah so versus singing like man to man so at the end of our service we do a benediction and so it's a man-to-man and saying hey God bless you Lord bless you and keep you and make his face shine upon you that kind of thing which is great and it has its place but in worship our hearts need to be directed towards the Lord our eyes need to be focused on him and so when we're worshiping the words of the song the phrases of the song how it's composed doesn't need to be hey let's encourage one another which is fine but when we're worshiping together corporately our eyes need to be focused on him so we're singing to God we're singing praises to Him and not singing to each other

Tony Caffey: Yeah we used to differentiate kind of the vertical aspects of a worship service with the horizontal and even even if at maybe the start of a worship said it's kind of a call to worship like come let's gather let's Worship the Lord you do want to reach that place quickly in the service where your eyes are directed vertically on the Lord and you want those emotions captured by the music in order to concentrate on the Lord and saying truth about him and that's kind of where the lyrical content ties in so just to be clear you know worship isn't just singing songs to God but um can I say this tell me if you agree with this there is a a special unique place in God's he

Derek Flowers: Art that music captures as it relates to worship

Tony Caffey: We have this whole book in the Old Testament that's about songs and you know the man who was after God's Own Heart the way that that was expressed it was expressed in other ways but he I mean he was a he was a worship guy he you know he was the Derrick flowers of the Old Testament he wrote songs to the Lord and celebrated the Lord and you know voila we've got this 150 chapter book in the Old Testament that is um used for that and then we have pictures in the Old Testament as well of you know certain Levites that were focused on leading the congregation in worship and then we even have New Testament um in injunctions to um sing songs of praise and worship to the Lord so this is so I don't you know I want to be clear that praise music or singing isn't the only form of worship but it is important it has an important place in the Christian uh worship Community

Derek Flowers: Yeah so simply put we can't use the language of music just to define what worship is

Tony Caffey: Yes

Derek Flowers: Good but a lot of times when we have music we can't separate it from an act of worship either yeah so we have the act of worship as we conduct Our Lives you know living righteously before God but when we worship we use that music too to help kind of catapult us catapult us forward and a great example uh is in Acts I think chapter 16 and Paul and Silas they get beat up and then they're thrown in jail and it's not just regular jelly

Tony Caffey: Oh right

Derek Flowers: There's things feeder put in stocks right and and so they they're praying and they're sin says that they're singing hymns to God and then you know we know the story that the whole place shakes and the gel cells open and and the guard is about to fall on his sword because all these prayers are about to break for everybody it's like hey we're all here but like and then what I love about it is they've just gotten beaten yeah they can't move around yeah and and like for me like that sounds horrible my being just like locked up and they're still praying and they're still singing praises to God in the midst of that that circumstance and it's because it's easy to to Worship the Lord when things are going really good especially on a Sunday morning you're surrounded by fellow Believers it's easy t

Derek Flowers: O sing praises it's easy to worship God in that moment but it's those hard moments where we can use the tool of music to you know quiet our hearts and focus on God

Tony Caffey: Yeah and think because we're singing out Promises of God we're singing out scripture yeah people walk into our church service on Sundays sometimes after a really difficult diagnosis at the doctor that week or after having you know a really um rough you know relational conflict with their spouse or with a child or with the parents and so that they come in with Brokenness and it's a time to refocus their attention on the Lord so let's talk about that a little bit because you and I are tasked every week to plan what we call an order of service you mentioned the the word in Romans 12. um so this is our worship service on Sundays and we're we're putting together different constituent Parts we've got communion we've got baptism we've got you know those uh sacraments or ordinances of the Lord but we've got preaching which you know that's my task we've got music we've got even announcements and other things what what are we trying to do you and I when we put together a worship service ahead of time for Sunday mornings?

Derek Flowers: Well we can't tell all of our secrets

Tony Caffey: Well give them a give them a little taste there Derek

Derek Flowers: No so uh what we do uh lucky like you said we have you know from start to to finish we typically have on on a regular Sunday we have a song we have announcements we have some more music we have scripture reading we have expository you know Bible teaching and then we have we close with a song and then we close the whole service with the benediction and so there's all these different uh Dynamics going on in the service and so a lot of it is is done so that we you know we're edifying building up the corporate Body of Christ and leading people into uh into worship and into the teaching and pointing people towards what Christ has done on the cross

Tony Caffey: Do you think about that in terms of the songs that you sing there's you know you want the biblical component of what we're doing but also kind of that christological piece as well where people can those who are saved can be reminded about what Christ has done for them those who are unsaved maybe who wander into church can hear the gospel before the pastor even says anything

Tony Caffey: Yeah it's it's uh probably the most important piece

Derek Flowers: Um you know I was reading a thing on on social media the other day and this guy was asking he said uh not including the message not including the the your pastor preaching but in your worship Services worship leaders are you if somebody walks in will they hear the gospel message and uh I smiled and I was like yeah every Sunday

Tony Caffey: Good

Derek Flowers: Uh it's just it's a very important piece it's what we do so like for me not that it has to be a part of every song I mean right you would even have Psalms from the Old Testament that if we sang them word for word may or may not have a christological piece to it it might just be generally God glorifying in the way that the lyrics come together but you know at least you know uh one song in a worship set you would want to have that christological piece and and to be honest some of the older hymns that we kind of revitalize and utilize here yeah they've got it I mean they they thought that way and it's got those components built into it

Tony Caffey: Yeah yeah

Derek Flowers: So for me when it comes to like selecting songs too like I try to be sensitive to the Holy Spirit and you know how I can pick out a song saying okay this song's really good and it is and then it's biblically sound and I'd love to sing it but at the same time it that may change um in the process of trying to pick out songs and um and this happened quite a few times and also try to look at the passage of scripture that you're going to be preaching on and how can these songs complement the message of your the message that you're trying to communicate um and then of course the biggest piece of having chrysological pieces in there

Tony Caffey: Yeah and I know there's logistical challenges to this so um you know I like to tell worship leaders like you when I was younger I fantasized about being a worship leader because I love to sing and I love to play guitar and maybe sometimes even as a pastor I preacher on Sunday I still fantasize about being a worship leader but I mean there's some challenges there because and this is where I felt my limitations you you're trying to pick keys for it that everybody can sing in right which I mean there's some work and Some Talent involved in that you're leading a band full of different musicians who have different skill levels and you're trying to pick songs that are are uh good and challenging complex but not so complex that nobody can learn it within a week and the congregation can't sing it um so you know those are some of the I guess the the logistical hurdles that you work through week in and week out but then you rehearse and I'm sure that's a a time when you can gather with your musicians and you know practice and refine what you're doing is that as a worship leader is that something you enjoy that kind of rehearsals step and you know meeting with other musicians and and trying to uh to to Really bless the congregation in terms of presenting music to them that they can sing and Worship the Lord with?

Derek Flowers: Yeah there's not a part um of what I do throughout the week that I don't enjoy obviously Sundays is the best day of the week I think you'll agree with me on that

Tony Caffey: Oh yeah

Derek Flowers: But um you know there's so many different things that go into it but every bit of it is is enjoyable for me um and you talked about picking out different song keys and not all the time is every set for each you know each Sunday gonna go the way that I'd like it to go because I would prefer all the songs to be in all the same Geeks so they flow better but that's not always going to happen based on the the song and where the melody Falls in that key of the song um but yeah it's making sure that that there are you know keys that everybody can see sing in so that everybody feels comfortable and you know because I can sing probably a little bit lower than some of the people that we have on our team and I can definitely sing higher than yeah the guys we have but I'm not gonna belt out you know trying to sound like Phil Wickham or Chris Martin Chris Martin or like uh Benjamin William Hastings uh he's a guy from Hillside I don't know he almost sounds like a child uh that he sings so high and it's I'm not gonna sing that way because at the same time it's not a concert you know it's

Tony Caffey: Right

Derek Flowers: It's a congregationally it's a time for the body cries to come together and just seeing out God's Praises

Tony Caffey: You want them to sing

Derek Flowers: Right

Tony Caffey: Yeah you're saying correct so what would you s

Derek Flowers: Ay to let's say we've got somebody in our congregation who they're like Derek love your heart but I I can't sing in key I uh you know have it really sloppy understanding of music and I'm kind of choppy whenever I try to clap you know I can't even clap in Rhythm what would you say to somebody like that your desire for them on Sunday morning

Tony Caffey: Bless your heart

Derek Flowers: No

Tony Caffey: I would I would tell them just like a true Texan bless your heart you know what what are you asking for somebody that's wanting to be like on the worship team or just somebody in the congregation?

Derek Flowers: No it's somebody in the congregation yeah so I would just simply say the Bible says make joyful noises in in that respect um you know we're not asking you to be on stage so there's not a skill set required at that point it's hey Make a Joyful Noise it's it's all from a heart posture again it's not about you know musical abilities when it comes to true worship and and so it's just a posture of the heart and if you want to clap offbeat you know as long as you're not distracting others uh you know the Lord's blessed by it yeah

Tony Caffey: Um Make a Joyful Noise is one of my favorite passages in the Old Testament and and it doesn't nullify the place of skill for worship leaders because you know we know even in the Old Testament that they chose people who had abilities and train them up so it doesn't mean like you know church services should everybody should be just noisily worshiping the Lord chaotically but I mean to the extent that you're able to sing that you want people to sing

Derek Flowers: I want people to sing

Tony Caffey: I mean it makes uh our job more enjoyable I think to have the participation of the church not just it's not a show I appreciate what you said there it's not a concert um we're we're here to collectively as the body of Christ praise the Lord good well what are some uh criteria let's maybe move away from the Make a Joyful Noise for the regular parishioner um what are some things you look for in with your team because you know the Old Testament did have talented people that were recruited even in more generically with the creative arts there were the two individuals who were used to to build the temple and even before that the Tabernacle there were Artisans that were tasked with that

Derek Flowers: And they're you know to use that term there's musicians who God has uniquely gifted you want them to serve and play bass or play drums or play guitar but what in addition to maybe skill uh with their musical instruments what is what are some other things you look for in terms of your team members?

Derek Flowers: Yeah so um yeah in the New Testament like there's a lot of musicians you'll see that they aren't just um skilled musicians but they're also priests they're from the levitical order and so a lot of people a lot of worship leaders a lot of uh pastors will say um well I'd rather just have somebody that has you know all heart and no skill and then have somebody with a bunch of skill in the heart and that's that's fine yeah but I don't want to settle I want both

Tony Caffey: Yeah that's a false dichotomy right?

Derek Flowers: Yeah I want heart and skill I want somebody that's on fire for God that has a grown relationship with him and has the skill set at the same time because I can't have somebody up there that doesn't know how to play drums and all they're doing is just doing crazy stuff I'm like oh well they have a heart for the lord well God's a God of order not chaos so I can't have somebody up there acting like a clown that's not going to lead anybody to worship is not going to edify the body of Christ

Tony Caffey: Right but Derek I'm making a Joyful Noise on the drum set

Derek Flowers: Oh yeah make it at home so leave your tambourines at home so but um yeah so for me like that's the the number one requirement is anybody that's wanting to be on the platform and leading people into worship because it's not just me yeah I'm the worship leader like that's my that's my title right and I'm doing that actively actively every Sunday but everybody up there is responsible in their role for leading people into the presence of the Lord and so they have to understand that so number one they have to have an active growing relationship with Jesus and then second they have to have the skill set they have to be competent in whether it's an instrument or vocals or in some cases both playing guitar and singing at the same time uh whatever it is they have to have that skill set and an understanding of you know how they contribute to the team as a whole in the in that role yeah good yeah and I

Tony Caffey: I would add to that you know as the pastor I want people that are committed to the church and committed to the body of Christ that's gathered there so I really resist the notion of like you know hireling musicians who just have a skill but maybe they are tangentially connected to the church I desire to see those people ministering on on the stage with the instruments who are committed to the people of God gathered there

Derek Flowers: Yeah I agree 100

Tony Caffey: Yeah similar with children and our teachers and children's ministry like I don't want to hire that out like I want people who are committed to our kids as part of the body of Christ serving in that way

Derek Flowers: Yeah we want them to be invested in in our church and um you know one thing I tell them too all of our team members is you know because we have two Services I say hey make sure that you're in one of those Services sitting there learning you know growing in your knowledge of the word um but then also on the weekends that they're not serving unless you know I understand if you're on vacation or you're sick or whatever else but if you're not serving you need to be in church don't just come on the weekends that you serve

Tony Caffey: Yeah that doesn't show commitment to the church

Derek Flowers: Good

Tony Caffey: Derek no I agree yeah maybe just to sum up what we're talking about here and I'll give you a chance maybe for final thoughts here you know praise and music aren't the only expressions of worship but they're important and we want to we want to praise the Lord on Sunday morning here at verse by verse fellowship and and sing with our whole Hearts to the Lord because even historically going back to the Old Testament that's been such an important part of our the way in which we worship our creator and um so that that's important also having uh people who are committed to that throughout the church at whatever level they are but also skilled and committed people who are also leading on the worship team that's important as well so those are some of our commitments as a church and then worship Ministry anything you want to add to that?

Derek Flowers: No that pretty much sums it up

Tony Caffey: Good Derek thanks man thanks for taking some time here to talk with us about praise worship music and all of that thanks for participating in Theology and actio

Tony Caffey: N and listening to this particular discussion you can hear more about theology in action as well as live stream our services at messiahbible.org and look for other Theology and actions in the past as we've talked through important topics for our church and also stay tuned for more subjects like this in the future