Transcript
Levi Hyri: Oh welcome back to Theology and action. I'm Levi Hyri again with Pastor Tony Cathy. How you doing?
Pastor Tony Cathy: Hey Levi, good to see you.
Levi Hyri: Yeah, you as well, you as well. So we're going to continue our core values. Did you want to, I can challenge you or you can read it, did you want to touch on our mission statement again?
Pastor Tony Cathy: I would love to. No, we live to make disciples who love God and each other, learn from his word and long for his return. Absolutely, Levi. So yeah, that disciple-making component there is really important and that leads us into our second core value. Yeah, yeah, and our second core value is equipping the Saints to follow and serve Christ
. And I'll just remind and touch on, we did a video on our first core value recently and it's proclaiming God's word with Clarity and conviction. And I like the fact that it does to me feel like our core values kind of build on each other. I know there's a little bit of an order for purpose, so let's just kind of let's dissect it and break it down. Uh, equipping, we, we'll just start with the first word there. What does it mean if do you want to to find equipping?
Pastor Tony Cathy: Yeah, so it's derived from a a great passage, uh Ephesians 4:12 talks about equipping one another within the church body
. And you and I just had some time off camera to talk about some of the the Greek behind it. So katartismos is the Greek. It's uh what's called a hapax legomenon, like only used one time in the New Testament, and it has the idea of building up and strengthening. You know, equipping, I don't know if the military metaphor is built into this, but you might think of somebody putting on Military Garb, going off to to battle, going off to war. And so that's Ephesians 4:12. We're talking about, you know, Paul, uh giving instructions to the church body on how they need each other and how they can serve each other. I think even before that, we can link this particular core value to uh the Great Commission, and and that's kind of the tie-in with our with our own mission statement. Because what what does it mean to equip the body of Believers um for the work of ministry? Well, the other word for it, Jesus's word is discipleship. We're making disciples. Matthew 28:19. We're um in in the context of the church now more specifically, as Paul's fleshing that out, we're making disciples, equipping them, and also part of that involves serving one another and leveraging the gifts of the church, the uh Mutual edifying of one another within the church body. That's all wrapped up in this concept of equipping
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Levi Hyri: Okay, I like that. I like that. And you you mentioned, I don't, I don't know that you said it there, it's actually a noun. Yeah, it is kind of interesting to me that I, I mean, I wouldn't at all think that the word there would be a noun, but that's just a kind of interesting side note
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Pastor Tony Cathy: Are we have some words that do that in English. So even the concept of equipping, I think the technical term in English is gerund when there's that -ing on the end and we can use that uh both uh verbally but also uh nominatively, I think is the term for it, when you talk about like training is such and such, that's a noun but there's kind of verbal aspects built into that because train is behind that word
. Similarly, equipping is the concept, it's the noun, but we're to equip is the verb kind of behind the scenes there in terms of the action that's going on as part of that noun. So we at some point we need to bring a grammar expert in here and and help us work through that
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Levi Hyri: Yeah, it, I nerd out on the on the language and stuff, but the grammar side of it kind of still makes me some stumble from time to time. So the next uh step there, the Saints, we're equipping the Saints. Let's let's take a step back and not just accept that everybody understands what who the Saints are
.
Pastor Tony Cathy: Yes, good point, because that gets confused. So just for clarity's sake, we're not talking about the New Orleans Saints
. Um, we're not talking either about those people who have done two verified Miracles at least and have entered into a place of uh almost deified status within the Catholic Church. Unfortunately, that is a false view of sainthood and the nature of being a saint. This word really is interchangeable with Christian in the New Testament. We're talking about those people who have been saved by the blood of Jesus. They're called Saints. Etymologically, that word derives from the idea of uh being holy or sanctified. And uh we understand in light of our salvation that our holiness, our righteousness is imputed to us in light of what Christ has done for us. So we're not saintly in our own power, uh we're saintly, we're Saints because of what Christ has done for us. He has cleansed us. And then I think a part of that as well, the understanding there is that we are in the work of progressive sanctification. We're becoming more like Christ day by day. So and that ties in with this equipping uh concept as well. We have gifts that are being leveraged. We also have in the body of Believers, we have iron sharpening iron to use an Old Testament metaphor. We have um leveraging within the church body uh the gifts of Believers to help sharpen, strengthen, sanctify the Saints. So for some that's the gift of teaching, for some that's the gift of leadership, for some that's the gift of service helps. There's all these gifts that the Holy Spirit distributes according to his will, not ours. We don't get to choose our gifts. Um, and then as we use those gifts, as we are equipped in the way that we we um exercise them within the church body, then the church body is built up and it's, I mean, we, I probably overuse this word Levi, but it's beautiful. That's the way that God created the church to function
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Levi Hyri: You act, you you say that and this is kind of a funny side note. I was actually realizing recently like I've really started using the word beautiful all the time. I wonder if I got it from you
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Pastor Tony Cathy: It's likely. What what would be another good word for it? It's strategic in the way that God set it up
. And um, you know, there's also something satisfying too when you think about here we are, you know, it's 2024, 2023, about to be 2024 and, you know, God has been active doing this within the church universal but also in local churches for centuries. Yeah, and uh so we're we're a part of that trajectory dating back to the early church um as part of the church universal but we're also a local church that's um you know trying to be obedient to the scriptures and and experiencing the joy of that here Verse By Verse
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Levi Hyri: Yeah, so I'll, I'll kind of, if I'm understanding what you're saying correctly, you're we're taking the equipping processes, we're trying to take the each individual's gifts in showing them how to use it in the church body. Is that a fair assessment?
Pastor Tony Cathy: Yeah, and and I, I want to invoke the Holy Spirit. So, I mean, the Holy Spirit is uh the one uh who's doing the equipping
. That's empowering, that's um, you know, giving us the gifts, using using those gifts for the edification of one another. So we we got to be careful about that, right? So, uh, I think as I've explored my own gift mix and how God has wired me, and then not just my natural gifts but I would say my supernatural gifts that have been given to me after conversion, uh involved teaching, leadership. I sense the Holy Spirit's power in that as I used those gifts, try to refine them over time and strengthen them by God's grace. And I can see as well uh the way in which those gifts have helped other people and strengthened other people and moved other people along the process of discipleship. Been been fits and starts for sure, Levi, so it's been, you know, uh a a process of learning how to use that gift and how to to use it for the benefit of the church. But I I know as well, you know, my wife's gift mix is a little different than mine. I know uh as well our leadership and staff here at at Verse By Verse, we have different gifts. And um there's the satisfaction comes, I think, truly in knowing how God has wired you, knowing has got how God has supernaturally wired you and uh allowing you to use that uh for the benefit of the church. Incredibly satisfying, uh it's something that is energizing. Yeah, I know some guys who are just wired as servants, yeah, in terms of their heart. Um, I mean, we're all called to be servants. Even leaders need to have a servant leadership mindset like Jesus had. But some people like love serving the body, love meeting a need in the church, or they see some kind of issue in the church that needs needs a little bit of attention. They don't need uh, they don't need a title, they don't need recognition, they just go and they make it happen and that's incredibly satisfying for them. So we need all of that. You know, Paul talks in a few different places about the nature of uh the body dynamic that's at work within the church and we all have different body parts, we're all part of this one body, Christ is the head. And again, hate to overuse it, but it's it's beautiful the way that God created it and the way that we see it working
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Levi Hyri: Absolutely it is. I, I know uh for me personally, and I think at some point, maybe when you first came here, one of our first meetings, we briefly touch and talk about this. For me personally, I've had the ability to use some of my gifting outside of church setting and inside as well
. I think we have had the opportunity, blessed with that. And just the motivating factor and the even the difference in being able to use it for the body as opposed to just anybody, I personally feel like there's just a difference. Okay, that it feels better, it's more energizing, it's more motivating, it's more driving to for me personally to want to do it for the church. I'm kind of a Curious Thing, how did you come about realizing or learning what your gifts were? Was there any special moment or did it just kind of...
Pastor Tony Cathy: Boy, I wish there was a great website to send people to. Just go here, fill out this questionnaire and bada boop bada bing, it'll tell you. Tests, yeah
! I mean, I, I don't want to be too dismissive because I've taken um tests before that have been profitable in some way, telling in some ways, it was telling me what I already knew, sure. But uh there's there been some trial and error. Um, there's been um an an effort to maybe try to before I was ready, go and do some things and I had, this is part of the goodness of the church as well, some some older mature Saints come and say, you know, let me help you with this or, you know, here's where there's some some shortfalls in terms of your training and and your capability. So um, you know, my gift is one too that that does require uh a certain amount of of training. So I'm I'm a teacher, that's kind of how I'm wired. Um, and then, you know, to teach and to preach in setting like ours, uh I mean that that requires training, that requires uh discipling by other people, it requires maturity in many ways to be able to speak to uh people in different stages of life. Um, I started preaching to a church body altogether when I was 29, so God was so gracious in that and the church that I was serving was so gracious as well to to allow me to kind of grow up into that role. But uh it's not always that way. I mean, I would think somebody who has a teaching gift before I was doing that, I taught youth and I was a youth pastor for several years. Um, I've been involved in children's ministry not as much um as youth ministry. So I've had avenues to use those gifts. Uh the leadership gift, I think that part of me as well, it's it's um just just something I get energized by, I go after it and I always like doing it in a team dynamic as well. I'm not one of those guys that likes to kind of blaze a trail going my own direction. I know people like that God has wired them for that kind of visionary like go after something brand new and I didn't quite have that wiring. But uh I love to lead, I love to organize, I love to see people influencing uh and especially in the the shepherd sheep dynamic of elders and the leadership of the church. So I don't know if I'm answering your question, I'm kind of just being self-referential with my own journey. But, you know, we've, son, we've walked through that journey, Sonia and I, with her gifts and she's got gifts of hospitality and encouragement and she's refined those gifts. She's also, I think, and this has been fun to watch, seeing a leadership gift inside of her kind of grow and mature over time as well. It wasn't as pronounced early on in life. And and that's a thing too, I, I mean, I think spiritual gifts, we, they can be added, in other words, uh over time. Um, you know, I, I'm involved in teaching at Moody Bible Institute. So here I'm, I'm repping Moody uh on my shirt. Uh I have a lot of second career folks, yeah, who either they're military or they're police or they took an early retirement and they're like, I, I haven't always been this way but I just want to study and teach the Bible. And so that's why they're at Moody to get equipped to do that. And so I think I think that is part of it too, is that as we age and over time the Lord can add gifts. Um, what's been your journey?
Levi Hyri: Yeah, Levi, that was kind of part of the reason I, I brought yours up because I know I've had a unique uh journey and I've talked with others
. Um, so first so I don't rabbit trail too much to ask answer your question, my journey has very much been uh I'd say some gifts has was pretty evident early on even outside of church setting. Like it was just something that people recognized and pointed out and, hey, you know, and put me in roles that this is who you are, this is how where you fit, this is you understand how to serve but you understand how to lead in serving and just that dynamic. And that's been a big part of my life forever. But a lot of it was a lot of trial and error. And and the reason I, part of the reason I asked you, was there were times that and that I have hit and I've had conversations with others that I hit walls of, well, is this really my gift at all or am I in the wrong area? And I don't think that's an unhealthy mindset. There's going to, there's got to be some level of trial and error. And there are sometimes I've thought, well, this is my gift. Nope, not at all. We we've used to joke here about go try and serve in the kids ministry and if it ain't for you, it ain't for you. And I've seen a lot of people come through kids ministry of, they, I love kids and they get back and work with them like, that was a lot. Like, yeah, maybe, maybe not there
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Pastor Tony Cathy: Good. I think part of the trial and error is discerning in your own heart what it is, but it's also keying off others and uh seeing, you know, where other people affirm or maybe don't affirm that you have a gift in that area
. But I'm, I would advocate for that as well because people get saved here at Verse By Verse. I, you know, we don't spend six months trying to inventory their gift or try to gift mix and try to make, you know, go go find a place, start serving, see what the Lord blesses, see, you know, coffee ministry, hospitality, connection team. There's different ways to serve. And and if it's uh something we six months a year down the road, you're like, I don't think this is it. I, I'd rather pursue this and then, okay, let's let's see how maybe uh another opportunity is available to you. But I want to finish this verse in Ephesians 4:12 as well because, you know, to equip the Saints for the work of Ministry, for building up the body of Christ. I, I think that's a good uh mindset to have and also an an evaluative principle. Like, is is are people being edified? Is the body being built up by the way I'm using my gift? Yeah? Um, and, you know, that takes a little bit of self-awareness, that takes some clarity, hopefully in times of prayer as well. You're praying that through and trying to think how the body is actually being strengthened, being um matured by the use of my gift. And um, you know, it it's a collective thing as well. It doesn't have to be you on an island trying to discover these things or trying to to figure these out. Uh we we work as a a body of Believers, we help each other, we sharpen each other, we pursue this goal together
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Levi Hyri: We've talked uh before and even did a video on mentoring and discipleship and that was very much part of the process was having met with one of the elders and some of the other people they point out, well, I see this and yeah, I'm going to confirm this, well, maybe we're off here, let's direct it here
. And part, kind of a funny, I always poke at the personality test a little bit because I think they're beneficial, but people can rely on them a little too much. The church I was a part of before this in Missouri, when you joined uh to serve, uh not just be part of the congregation, but to serve at the church, they had you take a personality test or a spiritual gifting test essentially to see where you're at. And funny thing is, and I, I always debate, I'm like, is it, am I leading the questions because I already have this preconceived notion or not or what, but it always turns out the same couple things. So I'm always like, is this just confirmation or am I leading the questions here
?
Pastor Tony Cathy: So yeah, it's a tool, I would say
. And uh like any tool, it, you know, it it can be helpful and sometimes maybe it's not helpful if you rely upon it too much. Yeah, I will say this, one, one of the reasons this is one of our core values and we've built this into the DNA of our church is that we we really want to have a high expectation of participation in worship. And when I say worship, I mean broadly speaking, not just singing songs on Sunday as important that as that is, but worshiping through serving, through using the gift that God has given you. So there is, I think, uh legitimately a critique against the American Church of, you know, 10% of the people doing 90% of the work. People have a consumer mentality and kind of a spectator sport at church where we just come and we we get served our coffee, we get handed our bulletin, we sit in our seat and we do that every week as we just uh derive from the gifts of other people something for ourself. That's not how God designed the church to be. We're uh all actively should should have ownership and what we're doing as a church using our gifts to equip. And uh so I mean it's certainly appropriate to do that uh on a Sunday some of those things, but, you know, every other Sunday maybe you should be the one brewing that coffee and passing it out. Maybe you should be the one greeting um and welcoming or serving in children's ministry or serving on the worship team and using whatever gift God has given you for the benefit of the church body
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Levi Hyri: Absolutely. And I, I'll even kind of piggyback off that. Uh I think that there's a, it's to test something out and to see if this is your gift and realize it's not is not a failure by any means
. In like the children's ministry example, if you go serving the children's ministry and you realize I love to teach but children are it, that's not a failure. And there's areas like not, I work with tech here at our church. I wouldn't call Tech my gift. I don't know that Tech is a spiritual gift per se, but you can find healthy appropriate ways to apply what your gifts and are two areas to serve. It doesn't have to just be, well, I'm a teacher so I've got to go teach on stage. It can it can look different
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Pastor Tony Cathy: Yep, good. Probably serving would be the the background of tech. Praise God for our our folks that are good at tech because it's needed
. So yeah, so we're equipping the Saints to follow and serve Christ. What does it mean there to serve Christ? What does that look like? We've touched on it a little bit, but I'm sure you can dig deeper
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Pastor Tony Cathy: Yeah, so disciple, uh a, you know, to make disciples, Matthew 28:19
, of whom, you know, is that the right English? Um, we're Disciples of Christ, right? We've been redeemed by him. It's, there's Paul actually used a stronger language than that. We're slaves to Christ, you know, the doulos term in Romans. Um, so we're here to serve Christ, we're here to love Christ, we're here to follow Christ. And that really should be the vision behind what we're doing. Not uh, you know, Verse By Verse, we're, I think there's a lot of people that can get wrapped up in the church and without knowing it becomes uh in some ways idolatry of the church and not a focus on Christ. That's that's a fail. So um, yeah, he's our savior, he's our Lord. We're committed to him. We're we're equipping one another in order to worship, serve him, grow in him as one of his disciples. Uh I think that that last uh portion there of that core value is really key
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Levi Hyri: All right, I think that is all the time we have today. Thank you for your time, Tony. If you at home are interested in more of what we have to offer at VBBF, you can go to vbf.org. We live stream our teachings on Wednesday evenings and our teachings on Sunday morning as well
. We, I did also talk a little bit about specifically serving in children's ministry. If children's ministry piqued your interest at all, we've got a video we'll link here on uh what the children's ministry here at Verse By Verse specifically looks like. You might check that out. Until next time, God bless
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