Transcript
Levi: Oh welcome back to Theology in action. I'm Levi here again with Pastor Tony Cathy. How are you doing today?
Pastor Tony: Hey Levi, good to see you.
Levi: You as well as always. So we recently as a church talked about and have put an emphasis and kind of finalized our mission statement, our core values. We did a recent video recently specifically on our mission statement. Wanted to start digging into our core values, but first I thought I'd give a reminder of what our mission statement is, and I admit I don't have it memorized, so I am just going to read it here real quick. Okay, yeah. Uh, we live to multiply disciples who love God and each other, learn from his word, and long for his return. Yeah. So that is our mission statement, and I love our mission statement. We don't need to dig into it; we have a video on it. But going into the core values, why is it important to have core values as a church?
Pastor Tony: Yeah, so you're moving down what you might call the ladder of abstraction. Uh, the mission statement is comprehensive, and it covers a lot of ground, and now we're trying to get into the specifics with the core values of how we live out our mission statement and those mechanisms that are essential in our church body to help us, you know, flesh out and, uh, you know, live out what we have in that statement. And it's not an accident that the first of these involves the preaching of God's word.
Levi: Yeah, so our first mission statement that we're going to talk about today is proclaiming God's word with clarity and conviction, and I do I absolutely love that one. You touched on it a little bit. I was going to ask, I noticed it's first listed. Is it, is it there for a reason, or did we just happen to list them in this order?
Pastor Tony: No, it's there for a reason. And, uh, I mean, we are Verse by Verse Fellowship, so even in the name of our church, we're, we're emphasizing something, and that's the power of expository preaching, the, uh, the revelation that we have from God in the scripture is important. It's so important to us that we, uh, we want to be about that, uh, all the time, but specifically on in our Sunday gatherings as we're coming to worship. We, uh, go through books of the Bible. We work through them, and, and it's more than just, uh, you know, kind of the science of expository preaching or the discipline of that. We're, we're preaching, we're proclaiming, we're authoritatively saying this is, is, uh, authoritative, significant, applicational in my own life. And so let's, let's be about the work of, of studying it, uh, appropriating it, living it out every Sunday. But I want to be careful with that too, like, it's not just a Sunday thing only, but, uh, that's a point of emphasis for sure.
Levi: Yeah. Yeah, so these values, I are things that aren't applied to when you come into this building or when you're you're part of a function here. It's a part of who we are as believers and that just kind of stated as our organization, right?
Pastor Tony: And we're a church, so for 2,000 years, the church has gathered for on Sundays, which is the day of Jesus's resurrection. That's been, uh, the, the communal coming together. That's where the, um, you know, the ordinances are administered in terms of baptism and, and, um, communion. That's, uh, and it is important to gather, it is important to have that, um, you know, that community bonds, uh, lived out in the the life of the church. So it's not a Sunday only thing. So, uh, you know, I think people have used that cliché before, "Are you a Sunday only Christian?" No, but, um, but that doesn't mean that Sundays aren't important; they are important, right?
Levi: Absolutely, absolutely. I think that they, uh, core values as a whole kind of, and you can correct me if I'm wrong in this thought process, they kind of give a one reminder and realigning toward this is the direction we're going, as well as if you're not a part of this church, you can see what we believe, but also fall back of if I'm not comfortable in doing this, is it, it's either convicting me or should I not come to this church? Does it have all those aspects to it?
Pastor Tony: Absolutely. And I'll say it differently. If you're not comfortable with the, uh, the proclamation of God's word with clarity and authority and conviction, then this is not the church for you.
Levi: Absolutely, absolutely. I do love that we have that as our heart and at our for first, uh, so there's a few, um, words in there that I that I feel have some emphasis, uh, clarity and conviction. Why did we choose those words? Clarity and conviction.
Pastor Tony: Yeah, well, let's start with clarity. So there's a way in which to teach the Bible, um, that is unclear or that, you know, as a pastor, you know, I could go up there and say, "Well, here's one view on this, and here's another view, and here's a third view, and here's a fourth view." You know, and I'm not really sure which one it is, so pick which one is most consistent with you or, or it, there's a way to preach in which it's, uh, you can, uh, just kind of jumble words and jumble ideas, and people walk away from the sermon or walk away from church saying, "I'm not even sure what the pastor was saying." You know, that that's not helpful. That's not the way in which revelation given to us through the means of God's word is supposed to work. Uh, we should have clarity. And there's, so I'm going to use a a $10 word here, um, perspicuity is the old word for clarity.
Pastor Tony: And one of the things that the reformers really emphasized was the the clearness, the perspicuity of scripture. That doesn't mean that, uh, scripture is always easy to understand, um, and that's a mistake that we can make, like, you know, it's it's so simple, everything all the the time. No, there's complexity to what the Bible says. There's, uh, there's milk and there's meat.
Levi: Yeah.
Pastor Tony: Thank you. That's a good way to put it. There's hard things that we need to work through. But the the doctrine of perspicuity is the idea that the the essence of it, the truth of it for those who are seeking out, can it can be found. It's not something that's so profound, it's it's as if, you know, why do we even bother, you know, or let's just let's just embrace the mystery of it and live in the space of mystery. Okay, well, that's fun for about like 10 minutes, and then you're like, I want to know what it means because God went through all of the work to, uh, inspire the authors to write scripture, to, uh, canonize it, collect it, to pass it down. Even we think of people like William Tyndale and John Wycliffe and people in our English tradition who have taken the time to translate it into an understandable English version so that we can appropriate it in terms of its clarity. So, uh, all of that to say, one of my tasks as the the preacher and and whoever takes, um, the pulpit, whether on Wednesday night, Sunday morning, an elder, a guest preacher, whoever it is, you know, we're, we're working hard to make things clear and, um, and so that the the heart that's attentive listening and paying attention can say, "Okay, this this makes sense." Not, not that we're always going to, uh, if there is a a situation where there is a difficulty, we need to walk people through it and and help them to understand it, but we don't we don't want to live leave people in confusion. That would be a, um, that would be a failure of of the task and dereliction of duty as a pastor.
Levi: Yeah, I think that culturally we see a lot of, uh, missed maybe opportunities to write the word, but people are not preaching the gospel clearly. They're trying to water it down and making it all accepting, all welcoming, and you get the "God is love," which, yes, he is, but he's not just love, and they focus on that and then, yeah, I'm saved, but I can just go live my life and do whatever I want, and I'm good. I've checked it off. I'm happy. And I I think that a lot of that comes from not having clarity attached to it. Would you agree?
Pastor Tony: Yeah, and even we finished at First Timothy, uh, few weeks back, and there the statement about the kind of Gnostic group that was, uh, kind of circulating these ideas where you have to have some some kind of higher knowledge to really understand it, and Paul's rebuking them and calling what, uh, they're presenting a kind of pseudo-intellectual gobbledygook that nobody could understand. And I mean, he rebuked them for that not only because they were embracing this confusing mess, uh, but they were deviating from the the doctrine and and that's the other, the doctrines of scripture. And the things that he had passed down to them that was the other thing about perspicuity that I want to point out as well is that it's not just clarity in terms of what the Bible is saying, but also, you touched on it, the Gospel that's in in there because, you know, the the Gospel is such that, uh, even a young child can understand the sum total of what the scripture communicates in terms of we're fallen human beings, sinners. Christ Jesus came and he died on the cross for our sins, rose from the dead, and through faith in him, we can be saved. Now, the Bible has a lot of components.
Levi: Yeah.
Pastor Tony: But that's the message of the Gospel that comes through it. And I think Augustine said that the, you know, the Bible is such that a a young child could wade in it and swim in it, and it's also deep enough for an elephant to drown. Like that's, that's the depth of scripture, but it's it's accessible. I think that's an important word, is that the the truths of the scripture are accessible for us, and part of the pastor, proclaimer, preacher task is to, um, is to communicate it clearly.
Levi: Yeah, moving, uh, kind of moving toward the conviction side. So when I first read this core value, I kind of saw this word as passion. My my mind kind of connected to passion. I don't think that's wrong for me. I have to I have to put myself in check. I've had times in my life where passion came out as just pure intensity and maybe a best descri--
Pastor Tony: Exactly.
Levi: Misguided or just a fire that was going to burn everything one way or another as opposed to a directed, uh, conviction per se. But I I I do like the fact that it's paired with clarity. I think that that is the roadblocks of where where should this passion go and how should it work?
Pastor Tony: Yeah. Um, so there there needs to be inside of the heart of the proclaimer, uh, a Herald is another word that's really good. You know, I'm I'm here not to invent truth but to proclaim and to Herald the truth of God's word, and that needs to come from a place of "this is true; I I believe this" of convictional, um, and and you can sense that in the preacher's voice when, you know, whether it's a politician or somebody else who's kind of hemming and hawing around about, you know, and and maybe their body language would communicate, "I don't even know if this guy believes what he's saying." You can see that, uh, in in terms of when people are publicly communicating something. You know, that should never be the case as we're handling God's word, as we're preaching God's word. The church needs to see that whatever is authoritative for them, that's coming through me or whoever's proclaiming, like, it's authoritative for me too. Like, this is working on me, and and that's where a lot of that conviction comes.
Pastor Tony: Some of that comes too from, you know, there's that great moment when, um, you know, Jesus talks about, you know, eating eating my body and drinking my blood, and he's obviously making allusions in John to his future death and atonement for sin, and people start wandering away from him. And, you know, he asks Peter, if I remember correctly, you know, "What, uh, aren't you going to go with him?" And he's like, "You, where where am I going to go? You have the word of eternal life." And, um, there that's part of the conviction too, like, this word that I'm opening up, that I'm preaching, like, where else are we going to go for truth in our world? We we see as we look around like people are gravitating to the goofiest, most ridiculous kinds of things to establish their truth, or they say things like, "You know, this is my truth," or, "You know, like, what what what's the anchor of that?" It's completely disassociated from from anything that would be concrete. And yet as Christians, and this is something that I think we have to offer the world, like, our convictions come from the Bible. It's clear here. Like, where else are you going to go? You're going to gravitate to this, you know, ambiguous place of, you know, creating your own convictions, good luck. I mean, that's not even stable. No, but this is, and this has been authoritative in the life of the church for for centuries. And, uh, and and we want to have that kind of mindset that this this is our authority. This is what, um, you know, we're deriving the Gospel, but also the implications of the Gospel, how we live our lives in the way that would honor the Lord. And, um, so that's where the conviction comes, and it's it's got to be there. It's got to be there for the preacher. It's got to be there for as well the congregation who's, uh, willing and and ready to listen.
Levi: Yeah, I think whenever speaking probably personally, I think this applies to many, when you're out sharing the Gospel or sharing God's word or just even maybe more so nowadays and more recently, just saying you're a Christian, you've got to have that conviction and that belief, or people are going to back you off that, and they're going to try pretty aggressively. Uh, ju real quick, just kind of snippet of a story. Going into the mission field, uh, go I had the blessed opportunity to go to Ecuador sometime last year, and that was I always, I'm I'm I'm the introvert, so I'm not the one that likes to walk up and start conversations. I'll talk with anybody about anything, but in the process of walking up, my mind is just going on, "Oh, what's h, what's going to happen? What's going to be said? This, this, this, this." And can trust in the Lord and the conviction got me to the process of that, but being able to fall back on, you, "I've been prepared, I've been equipped. There is clarity. God, I know you're with me. It's ultimately you, but I I've studied your word. I'm in a church that has this at the forefront. I know clearly enough that I can fall back on that," because a lot of my thoughts are, "Well, if he comes at me with a something I don't know, how am I going to get around it?" And it's always this and there it's it was a learning thing for me of trust the Lord but also I have been equipped and I have been prepared for it.
Pastor Tony: Good. I'll add another word to that as well in terms of conviction. So there's an unapologetic nature in the way that we come at, uh, scripture and also, uh, sharing the Gospel because the the Bible is, uh, I've used this term before, it's an equal opportunity offender.
Levi: Absolutely.
Pastor Tony: So and by that I mean that some people read scripture and they'll they'll gravitate towards the parts that they really like or the sins that they really hate that get denounced in scripture. They're like, "I like that part," but the other parts they don't like. And, um, you know, we, uh, have a a responsibility to the authority of God's word to preach it unapologetically, even if in our cultural milieu today it's completely countercultural to do that. And and that's the case. So great example was given. Tim Keller talks about how, you know, a thousand years ago as, uh, maybe an Anglo-Saxon warrior, let's say that he had two different, um, kind of sin issues in his life. One of his sin issues is that he had this homosexual desire that he needed to to address, and then he also has this desire to just kill people constantly. And a thousand years ago in that world, it was like, "No, you need to suppress that homosexual side of you, but that that killer in you, embrace that. That's what it means to be an Anglo-Saxon warrior. Go kill some folks." Well, you know, in our modern day world, it's the exact opposite. You know, they would take somebody on the streets of New York or in San Antonio, Austin, Texas, wherever, and they would say, "Oh, that that homosexual part of you, that's your identity. You need to embrace that fully, and that killer inside of you, you got to put that down. You know, we don't need that around here." And and that's, you know, uncouth in our modern day society.
Pastor Tony: Well, the Bible comes at that and basically offends both cultures and says to the Anglo-Saxon warrior and to the modern day person in our modern day world, both of those things are sins that need to be dealt with in light of the Gospel in light of what the scripture teaches. And you can, I mean, those are just two examples of sins. You can add a hundred more, whether it be, you know, greed or thieving or or infidelity or or whatever else. And so part of this convictional preaching that we're called to is unapologetically the Bible says this, let's do this, even if the culture says, "Don't do that," even if there's something in your heart, which there often is that says, "But that's who I am and that's my identity." No, you need to derive from the scripture the authority for your life and let that shape your identity because ultimately, as the Bible makes clear, your identity is in Christ, and we're called to to live in obedience to him.
Levi: Yeah, absolutely, and it's it's not always going to be easy. It's it's a process that we all have to go through, but that's where that conviction lies and where it is. So kind of stepping back big picture a little bit talking about core values on a whole here, because I believe we've talked about the I think this is the heart of not only every church but every believer as far as proclaiming God's word. But core values, do you think they're important for every church body or organization per se to have?
Pastor Tony: I think so, and it's it's helpful for you talked about earlier, the the visitors or the people who are exploring the church, you know, what what makes this church tick? What's, um, you know, what is it committed to, uh, as in terms of their their values? And and and I would say too, if they're unstated, there's an ethos that's part of the church that you'll pick up on pretty quickly. So, you know, in these cases, our core values, you know, as as we talk about them and present them to our church, none of our church here at Verse by Verse is going to be like, "What? Where did that come from?" You know, they're all these are all things that we've, uh, embraced and been celebrating and been committed to since before I got here, from from the inception of our church. It's very much a, yeah, "We already we knew that" repeating yourself type thought when we see these.
Pastor Tony: So there's stated and unstated core values, uh, in any church that you go to. So the value of having them stated is to, um, for visitors, for us to kind of come back to how we how we doing with this in terms of our commitment, where can we strengthen, you know, core value one, two, three, four, and five? And, um, and and so that's that's helpful in terms of, uh, the church dynamic. And so I would encourage other churches to do that if they haven't walked through that process and, um, and also, you know, workshop it in terms of, you know, leadership team meetings and, uh, dialogue and interaction with people as they get to know your church. It's it's helpful to to think it through, talk it through, and reinforce it.
Levi: Awesome. So as we kind of wrap up, do you have any get to church moments or edification for the people at home? Is that my tagline? "Get to church"?
Pastor Tony: No.
Levi: We do live in a day where you don't have to go to church to to get the word of God proclaimed.
Pastor Tony: You know, yeah, so the the greatest teachers in the world right now, you can tune in to their services or you can get their their, um, podcasts where you can listen to them, and and all of that's good. So I benefit from that as well, people that I listen to, but it's different on Sunday, uh, being in the church family, uh, you know, seeing a pastor, elder, leader who you have a relationship with and you're watching him grow in the text as you are, you know, on in process with him. And so I mean that's irreplaceable, but with with a podcast, as good as podcasts are and as important as that are, I've absolutely touched on that before that I have lived the folly of of doing that for whatever reason.
Levi: So in light of that, get to church. Beautiful. Good send off. I think that's all the time we have today, Tony. Thank you as always.
Pastor Tony: Thanks, Levi. If you're interested in, uh, hearing our talk about our mission statement, we've got that video linked here as well. If you're interested in anything else we do as a church, as a fellowship, you can check out vbyv.org. We live stream on Wednesdays and Sundays and are always coming up with new content. Till next time.
Related Teachings
