Transcript
Levi: oh welcome back to Theology and action I'm Levi hree here with Pastor Tony Cathy how you doing today Pastor Tony: hey Levi good to see you man Levi: absolutely absolutely so we we'll jump right into it we've got I think really fun interesting topic and hopefully it can bring some clarity to people at home we're going to talk about heaven and some of the misconceptions around that Pastor Tony: yes I'm sure you've heard quite a few yourself over the years yes but one of my favorite subjects it's a good thing to think about and I heard somebody complain once that we don't write songs about heaven anymore and maybe that's because at times hymns or songs are do have misconceptions thrown in them so but it is an important thing to think about to sing about to uh to contemplate in terms of okay we're we're not going to live forever what's our eternity look like and how uh how Levi: should we be anticipating that even in a Biblical way yeah why do you think that people get there's so many misconceptions about heaven you have a good thought on that Pastor Tony: I blame the Renaissance artists you know Michelangelo it's all his fault and rapael and all those guys yeah you know there's it just there's different cultures different perceptions of heaven and sometimes they seep into our Christian culture and if people derive uh thoughts about uh God eternity Heaven and Hell from Renaissance art or from other cultures of the world or unfortunately like even Bugs Bunny cartoons and silly things like that then you get uh you get these kind of misconceptions uh contextualized even within the church family and a good analogy would be like uh Angels you know the I can't remember if we've talked about this on on this podcast before but you know Cupid naked babies with bow and Pastor Tony: arrows shooting people and making them fall in love what is that you know there's no there's no biblical framing of that at all that's just Pure Imagination from people in the Renaissance Era and then that you know spread to the church and and so even even if people would downplay that rightfully maybe some kinds of conception of angels gets worked into our modern day understanding and then we don't see the angels as they're presented in the scriptures same kind of stuff with Heaven Levi: gotcha gotcha so we I'll one of the first maybe thoughts I can think I remember learning about heaven and learn later wait a second that's not actually right but they people paint this picture of pearly G gates in the cloud and that's kind of a modern concept of what we we think about will it be like that Pastor Tony: well that's not entirely wrong because we do have this New Jerusalem picture in Revelation what is that Pastor Tony: 20 through 22 and there are uh definitely um you know different kinds of jewels and there's a glory to that that's uh I think physical and real We have um the you know the river that runs through the New Jerusalem we have the uh the Tree of Life on both sides of that and so the and the streets of gold even so I mean there's something to that absolutely but we don't this might be what you're getting at we don't die and go to that place now this is uh a future reality that awaits the uh you know Revelation 19 the Revelation 20 the the the End of Time the seven years of tribulation and then a Thousand-Year Millennial Kingdom of Christ before everything melts away second Peter everything gets Bas basically completely removed and we have a new Heaven A New Earth and then that New Jerusalem so that's probably you know and it depends on your eschatology so yeah some Pastor Tony: some people like I'll I'll just call it a smooshed eschatology they just smoosh everything that relates to um you know the millennial Kingdom in the end times into like oh it's just when you die all those things come true and no there's actually a sequence of things that transpire and so uh I think that helps to understand that sequence Levi: yeah interesting so we'll we'll dig into that a little bit more uh so when you die now right looks different than some period down the line Pastor Tony: yeah and we don't have we have way more in terms of representations of the millennial Kingdom and the Old Testament and then the New Testament and then also the what I call the uh or what theologians call the final State okay uh then then the intermediate state which is that place where we go now so and we just have a few references in scripture you know to be absent in the body is to be present with the Lord so I do Pastor Tony: think that as we die we enter into the presence of the Lord there's some kind of metaphysical physical reality to that that's unclear we do have Jesus sitting at the right hand of God the father Jesus as an embodied savior is somewhere in a um like I said a physical metaphysical realm we do have examples of embodied uh individuals like um you know the two men was it Moses and Abraham on the Mount of transfiguration trying to remember that but they actually showed up and appeared to Peter and uh great story too by the way Peter's like let's let's make tense and we can just hang out here with these two Saints so you know what they were embodied but what were those were those rentals as they're waiting for their Resurrection bodies so some have speculated in light of that passage that there will be still embodied Saints um in this intermediate state Pastor Tony: as we await Resurrection so first timoth first Thessalonians 4 talks about when Christ Returns the dead in Christ will rise first they'll receive the resurrection bodies those who uh are still Saints at Christ's uh return then they'll be translated that's the Rapture and they'll get their Resurrection bodies in a fraction of a second after the dead Saints so um so there is that uh I I've said before and I'm okay with this I I think probably a disembodied state is uh what will exist in in uh the intermediate State as we await that Resurrection so that's my best understanding of those passages and then um like I said we will enter into new the New Jerusalem even the millennial Kingdom before that in an embodied reality so you'll get a new body Levi I'll get a new body free from sin free from Pain free from Pastor Tony: surgeries and aging and and all those other things that are part of this body now uh it's it's an Incorruptible body 1 Corinthians 15 so that's what we anticipate and I think we anticipate even that even after we die as we like the Saints who on Earth anticipate Christ's return Levi: that's interesting so you you talked about the new bodies us getting new bodies uh there's some misconception about people who believe that we'll just constantly live in this state of not having a body yeah Pastor Tony: yeah good you're hitting all the the ones that are like my pet peeves okay good and that I I don't know if that's a result of renaiss Renaissance Art and speculation but the kind of conception of we're all floating on clouds playing Harps or we're all uh you know floating around in a disembodied State like spirits and attorney that's it's actually a very Gnostic notion Pastor Tony: uh where you know your corporeal body is evil the only thing that's good about you is your spirit and so why would you want to be embodied again in disgusting flesh in the presence of the Lord forever well the Lord doesn't see it that way and in many ways as you look at Revelation 20 and 22 this is after the millennial Kingdom this is in the Eternal State you see that written in Revelation and it's it's kind of a Garden of Eden 2.0 is how I would describe it Pastor Tony: so and uh we'll walk with God in the cool of the day just like Adam and Eve did but it'll be even better because there won't be the possibility even of sin uh obviously Satan will be separated from us forever unlike uh how we understand what took place in the Garden of Eden and you know as God created Adam and Eve he didn't see their fleshiness as evil that was good it was good good good good good the only thing that wasn't good was that they were alone and didn't have the ability to Pastor Tony: reproduce and then OB obviously what wasn't good was Genesis 3 and the fall so our U taking on flesh is is a good thing and Jesus actually will be embodied as well for eternity and so that's part of the Incarnation is that he is now the God man uh for uh The Eternity future yeah so um I I think that's you know we we always talk about like Hills to die on like I mean that's pretty significant because I don't know how you read 1 Corinthians 15 right and walk away from that oh yeah we'll be disembodied for no I mean Paul's hammering away at this new Incorruptible body and I I'm so familiar with that passage as well because I typically read it at funerals yeah and this is our hope this is you know part of Christ's return even 1 Thessalonians 4 is the hope of resurrection and Jesus you know as he was interacting with his disci Pastor Tony: IES he had a resurrected body he was eating fish with his disciples he also was going in and out of walls whatever you know whatever was happening there sounds pretty cool I hope my new body will be able to do that but you know if Jesus was embodied and will as he ascended into heaven uh continue in that that embodied State then we why would we be afraid of that or not want that especially when the the concept of of a resurrection body is so clear in first Levi: yeah I wonder the Jesus going in and out of walls I I wonder if that's where some people kind of pull this Spirit not body this ghost in corporeal form from maybe I don't know yeah Pastor Tony: it and uh he's kind of like recognizable not recognizable you know like it's not J oh it is Jesus you know and then uh Jesus also has the the nails and His Hands which is fascinating to me how is that just Pastor Tony: something unique to him in order to testify to what he did in order to make Heaven possible for us um so I I don't know if we'll have our scars and our new Resurrection body I would say probably not I've got a few scars in my body I've had surgery on my knees I got elbowed in the face playing basketball all my scars are from basketball um and I think those will probably be gone but Jesus so Jesus's I think are unique in terms of Pastor Tony: this is the price that was paid for your sins but how wherever you land on that there is embodiment and I think that's uh that's an important part of our Our Hope as uh we anticipate our our new life and our eternity with the Lord Levi: yeah our I have heard uh going further into the kind of the body even in this church there's an interesting kind of back and forth and healthy discussion about whether or not it will Levi: be the same body brought back or you'll get a completely new body and it's been interesting to hear even our congregation kind of talk that out do you Pastor Tony: I think we'll look like we look now so I have this good friend he's like 5 foot two he's Vietnamese Chinese and uh he he used to say when I get my resurrection body I want to I want to be Shaquille O'Neal you know I want to be I want to be seven foot tall and be able to dominate people I don't Pastor Tony: joking I don't think that's going to be the case so I think an eternity will recognize each other and I'll recognize my wife and uh even Jesus will have his signature features but it it'll be the perfect state of that it'll be whatever we've got now but 2.0 version without any imperfections and so for those who uh deal with you know even physical um uh issues or deformities or Pastor Tony: things like that I think those will be removed in eternity and um yeah there's a little bit of mystery to that so I don't want to whenever you get into this you're like you don't want to be too definitive and say this is how it's going to be because I don't want to get a a Smackdown an attorney like the Lord saying well you overstated the case but this is the best sense I can make of it and I of Jesus's resurrection body that we similarly will look like we look now just in a perfected way and uh Pastor Tony: the there will be probably some additional mysterious elements to that as well Levi: that's what I've uh appreciated about our congregation is it never seemed like anyone took a real hard stance of nope I'm dying on this one it was very much a a wonder I'm fascinated I'm interested about and just kind of well I think this well this is what scripture says I always appreciated that I had a friend in high school he's like I want to fly when I get you know are we going to fly jump off the I don't know you know like I'm fascinated by the materializing deater Levi: realizing thing that Jesus did like I want to do that like can I go through walls you know beam in and out of spaces I don't know absolutely uh Pastor Tony: probably there'll be a few uh features that we weren't anticipating in our 2.0 for form you it's like wow I got an upgrade yeah our old our founding pastor always joked and talked about looking forward to owning a private island and having his Brad Pit body when that was his what he looked forward to so okay y Levi: so kind of digging into that a little bit further a and this one can I think can be a little can start to get touchy to some people uh and understandably why when when you think it through uh people discuss and when they talk about their loved ones ones that have passed talked about they're guarding over me now they're watching over me now and this this concept of they've become Angels there's kind of two different topics there I'm bringing up but we'll talk about the us becoming angels and Levi: s we'll nail that one first yeah Pastor Tony: that's are we recording this that's silly um God created angels separate from human beings and there's several scriptures that point to that even the fact that Angels long to look into these things and there's a curiosity with the Angelic race of creatures as to you know God how he operates uh even differently with human beings like God God Pastor Tony: never became an angel and died as an angel in order to save Angels yeah so the Fallen Angels the demons are not redeemable sure they made their decision and they're done and the ones that uh are not Fallen are going to be with us in eternity as Spirit beings so we're not there's no cross over there you know us becoming Angels them becoming us or whatever even though uh there are appearances of Angels in the scriptures taking on some kind of of human form and Pastor Tony: anthropomorphic form but that's not a permanent kind of thing that's just a vis so no um you know are they looking down on us now do they can they see us I I think the best answer would be I don't know as far as people yeah people you know uh uh forebearers sure we do have that passage in Hebrews where uh there's the description of us running the race and the Saints are kind of cheering us on Pastor Tony: gathered uh I preached that not too long ago and I remember reading um commentators that were you know yes they can see us and they are even in some way cheering us on and then others that say no this is just all metaphor and don't take this too seriously uh I I don't know I don't know whether they have insight to that uh I do know that you should not pray to them right I do know that you shouldn't try to communicate with them that defies everything Pastor Tony: that we understand in terms of Jesus being our mediator and the person that uh makes access to the father possible that's from Hebrews as well so um the the Catholic idea of Saints or praying to Saints or even offering sacrifices for those who are in purgatory kind of U longing to be released that's similarly a um superstitious nonsense yeah Levi: yeah I've I've always kind of had this thought and I look at it in kind of a a good way and eyes for eternity way is if they're getting there and they're before the Lord and seeing and learning all this if time is passing as we understand it I don't think they really like they've got better things to focus on than look at us look down on us I don't know either I Pastor Tony: I really don't have a good talk back to that one but yeah yeah I think their focus is high priority is elsewhere Levi: yeah that's that's a good point Pastor Tony: they got they're in the if they're in the presence of the Lord they're you would think mesmerized by that and longing to uh to bask in the glory of the Lord so we'll spend eternity worshiping him I think that's begun for a lot of them absolutely and that comes up too you know and you and I were kind of talking off air about you know some people struggle with is is heaven going to be boring Levi: exactly yes I remember Pastor Tony: you know I've talked to some people well- meaning Christians who are like yeah I'm going to play I'm going to play football 24 hours a day when I'm in eternity or I'm going to go fishing and you know and it'll be and you know that's really kind of silly yeah and I think I hate to preach right now but that's I think that reveals an idol in the heart like football really like that's all you can think of about when you enter into the presence of the Lord Pastor Tony: Lord and um or if there's not football and there's not fishing and there's not these other things that we value here on this side of Eternity we'll be bored or yeah you know we can't sing for 24 hours a day we'll get tired of doing that it won't live up to what I think it should be if it's not there yeah well let's just talk about that because you know I don't think we'll be singing 24/7 because there's that statement about um even the the tree of life and we'll enjoy the fruits and they'll have 12 Pastor Tony: different kinds of fruit so you know an implication from that is we'll be you know walking on the streets of gold we'll be uh you know walking down the river enjoying the fruit even anticipating it as it's changing we'll be I think serving in different capacities maybe even building being creative even as our New Jerusalem was is built for us uh traveling even around uh the the world the new Earth and and seeing new places beyond the New Jerusalem um so I Pastor Tony: I don't think we'll be bored in fact um I do think we'll be worshiping the whole time in other words not worship like singing but the bigger category of worship meaning everything that we do everything that we're absorbed in like Adam in the Garden of Eden is in connection with God you know Adam I don't think Adam was bored like he's naming animals and he's he's exploring and he you know he meets his wife and he's celebrating her and I mean Pastor Tony: I think that was the last he didn't he didn't sin and Eve didn't sin because she was bored uh she got tempted by Satan and the Temptation had to do with elevating to God's status when they were already made in the image of God they got deceived so here's the way I would describe it so we just had a men's Retreat and you know we had moments there as we were gathered throughout the whole weekend where you just had a sensation of Pastor Tony: you know we're with Brothers God is thick that's the word I would use like his presence is thick here we're cognizant of him constantly and it's incredibly satisfying and you don't want to leave it in those moments you want it to carry on Levi: absolutely Pastor Tony: and some of that was singing but we didn't sing the whole time and we did play basketball you know we did U you know just sit around talking and thinking about life Pastor Tony: and God and um so I think I think it'll be like that but it's like whatever that is to you know the nth degree 100,000 times greater than that that sensation and that enjoyment and that fullness without without any susceptibility towards sin do you know how sa satisfying that's going to be without any like selfish thoughts of yourself that take you down this kind of nistic Pastor Tony: and narcissistic uh Trail and you're kind of like now I'm miserable because I think too much about myself we won't do that and so whatever kinds of experiences you've had like that whether it's a men's Retreat or at church or even time with family or even I think of sex sometimes as this kind of a precursor to something that's going to be so much greater in eternity John Piper writes about that in his momentary marriage book um you know that's that's the Pastor Tony: eternity that we're going to experience we're not going to be bored we're going to be incredibly satisfied we're going to be free from all of The Temptations and the struggles and the the hardships of this world and we we won't be bored Levi: yeah yeah I've heard different people talk about uh different roles and responsibilities and the joy in it is not being feudal you're not working in something decaying things like that even that is something to look forward to I I I think our our look forward to is Levi: cannot even hit the Bottom Rung of the ladder what it what the experience is actually going to be like I don't think we have the capability of truly understanding it Pastor Tony: I think you're right but I also think as Saints age M that's one of God's uh the way that God gives us Grace in preparation for eternity our bodies break down um life gets hard um you know just just getting Pastor Tony: out of bed when you're 885 90 um older in life just you know going to the doctor going to the hospital for some normal procedure you're kind of like constantly facing the possibility of death there's a Grace in that where people start to long for eternity and have a greater conception of oh I'm I'm ready to leave this behind when you're 181 19 you're like I can live forever I don't need to go to heaven and and um Pastor Tony: you know you don't you don't hear that from 80 year olds yeah um or even 50s 60 year olds you start to gravitate towards I can't wait for abut new bodies new life and Eternity in the presence of the Lord so yeah Levi: I hadn't really considered that aspect of it and I think you're hit the nail in the head on it with it uh let's talk about what so one of the pushbacks I hear when Levi: when talking with people about heaven is the fact that they kind of say they're we'll be Angels or we'll be in the clouds and I'm like well you know that may not be entirely accurate and they their push back is some form of well the Bible doesn't really say it's not really clear so we don't really know so they just kind of hang on what they had believed in a ex kind of a justification way does the Bible say much about heaven and what to look forward to yeah Pastor Tony: good so heaven we use Heaven as kind of Pastor Tony: an all embracing term for what I spoke of just a second ago as the intermediate state so that's you know we die we're in a disembodied State I think in the presence of the Lord waiting for Christ's return and then we have the millennial Kingdom as I understand it Revelation 20 where Christ will reign and we have a lot of pictures of that in uh the Old Testament Isaiah especially kind of uh gives us these these sneak Peaks at what the millennial Kingdom would be would look like Pastor Tony: and then we do have Revelation 20-22 and probably in Isaiah as well some Illusions to this this new Earth new heaven New Jerusalem so I I think I think with all of that data you can paint a pretty clear picture on what heaven looks like in the intermediate State the in the in the Eternal State and then also in the millennial Kingdom we also have a lot about hell too you know and people try to downplay Pastor Tony: that like the Bible doesn't really talk about hell yeah it does Jesus talks about it Jesus gives illusion to it we have the Lake of Fire uh we have Illusions to gehenna and Hades um we have the passage in Daniel 12 where it talks about some for eternal life some for Eternal death so um and then with the resurrection body piece of it you know we do have Jesus who's interacting with his disciples and uh in Pastor Tony: in this Resurrection State and and 1 Corinthians 15 says Jesus's resurrection body is the first fruits of our own resurrection and I'm not I'm not into farming so I don't know this concept uh but from what I understand in terms of Agriculture your first fruits is like this is the the Glimpse or the the look at what the rest of the crops going to look like your your first harvest um and so that's that's Jesus he's the first harvest he's the first fruits what he has Pastor Tony: and the way in which he presents himself and those those Resurrection appearances which show up in all four gospels and also in the book of Acts that's like unto what we're going to have when we have a resurrection body so there's a lot of data there yeah which doesn't mean we know everything sure that it's going to look like but we we know enough to say Heaven's going to be awesome we don't want to go to hell Let's uh let's put our hope in eternity let's write songs about eternity and let's let's wait Pastor Tony: anticipating for the future Levi: let's talk about that and I we we've touched briefly on at different times on it in different videos is this longing for that that time the eyes for The Eternity is there a I I'll ask it in the other sense first is there an unhealthy way that we can look at and prioritize that while we're here on Earth Pastor Tony: yes okay I think so and there's Merit to the uh you know so Heavenly focused you're of no earthly good you know so when we get saved um we're not we don't immediately beam up into the presence of the Lord uh nor do we look for the first exit ramp off this planet and out of this existence we're enrolled uh for tasks to make disciples to live for the Lord to testify even as ambassadors for Christ um 2 Corinthians 5 I think that one is uh so I mean we're on Pastor Tony: Mission as we get saved and we we wait so there's two mistakes that Christians make one of them I think is that like you're so Heavenly focused or some people they they have apocalyptic fever they're like they sell everything they own and Jesus Jesus is coming back this month you know so let's just go to let's go wait for the Rapture no I mean nobody knows the hour of the time you do what you're supposed to do and be faithful and the Lord will come in his time and he's not going to forget about you Pastor Tony: the other mistake that people make is what I've called in the past over realized eschatology and it's this idea that you know all of the promises of the future all of the goodness of God we want now you know yeah which is the error of the Prosperity Gospel you know I've called it before the the Belinda carile complex among Christians ooh Heaven is a place on Earth um it will Pastor Tony: someday but it it ain't now and uh so this idea that these promises that we have in the future the goodness of God that we anticipate look Christians die right now Christians get martyred life is hard you're going to die you're going to age you're gonna go through cancer or something like that um so if you if you have this unrealistic expectation of what the here and now looks like you you know you you've got a wrong understanding of what's Pastor Tony: scripture says now scripture is forward-looking in the sense of you know now we struggle through the broken World until God can recreate it and our hope is in the future so U that's an important corrective thanks thanks for bringing that out Levi: yeah uh I can so I'll present I'll answer this question then present you a question yeah uh I know for me uh the healthy way to look at heaven and look forward to Heaven is an expectation a piece not fearing death and and a urgency with the time and the things we were given Pastor Tony: yes concisely that's kind of my short form anything I agree yeah we got we got work to do here and there's no need to fear death you know my dad would always say I don't I don't fear death I fear dying yeah you know because the dying part is the hard part but and we're all dying yeah slowly Pastor Tony: uh as our bodies you know what is it the second law of Thermodynamics as things you know move from from order to disorder you know as your body starts to expire um yeah we're we're our time is limited right and so we need to redeem the time um and and also I've said this before people people who know my preaching Ministry at verse by verse are probably tired of hearing me say this but you know there Pastor Tony: 's one advantage that we have now over eternity there's one thing that's better now than it will be in eternity and it's a shocking reality and it's this we have an opportunity to evangelize now and we won't in the New Jerusalem so at that point the Fate is sealed for those who are apart from Christ and those who are with Christ so now is our chance to redeem the time now is our chance to tell people about Jesus now is our chance to evangelize to be ambassadors Pastor Tony: for Christ so make the most of your opportunity and and then you know hopefully as you get into heaven you might greet some folks that God used you to to share the gospel with and there is uh scriptural reference talking about that work on that side of Heaven you'll be rewarded for the work you're doing here in now Levi: absolutely absolutely so proper exactly proper context of looking at a reward for what you're doing as opposed to the Prosperity Gospel yes uh approach to it okay Pastor Tony: any other big pet peeves have we hit them all I think we covered it yeah looking forward to Eternity and also um let's get to work now Faithfully serving the lord while we can I think that's all the time we have today again thank you Pastor Tony if you're interested in any more content uh we you can check our website bbbf dorg we live stream on Wednesdays and Sunday morning you can also check out this video Pastor Tony: on evangelism we did if you're interested in learning any more about that God bless
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