A Conversation About Near-Death Experiences: Theology in Action

Tony Caffey: Foreign welcome back to Theology in Action. My name is Tony Caffey and I'm the senior pastor of Verse By Verse Fellowship here in San Antonio, Texas. And I'm here with my co-host of Theology in Action, Levi Hietree. And I get to interview him this time, yeah, we flip seats this time, it's kind of interesting. This is going to be fun, Levi. Absolutely, although it's a serious topic. You've dealt with some health issues recently and I'll just say, you know, since I'm your pastor, I've really admired the way that you have dealt with that and been confident even in Christ as you've dealt with some really serious things. Maybe you could just walk us through that, what transpired.

Levi Hietree: Yeah, uh, so kind of if I short form it, I essentially have been walking around with a time bomb in my chest my whole life and never knew it, and it never went off, thank God. Um, one Sunday service we were, I was here working perfectly fine, my hands started feeling a little tingly, a little bit numb. I went home, it was going to work out and decided not to. I just, something didn't feel right. I'm like, I wasn't even in pain, just hand was a little bit puffy. So I went and spent time with a lot of people we go to church with, a lot of friends, family and throughout the day my hand, my arm started swelling up. So we were keeping an eye on it but I was just kind of, okay, something just weird, I might have hurt something, no big deal. The next morning I woke up and it was three times the size it should have been, it was starting to turn blue. Um, so a couple people checked in with me and asked how I was doing and expressed some concern. I was already thinking about going to the hospital, which I do not do, it's just not something in my nature. I messaged my little sister who was a vascular PA and sent her and my mom a picture, my mom is also a nurse, and said, hey, my arm's swelling up, what do I need to do? And my sister diagnosed it from a picture immediately. She said, you've got a blood clot, you've got a DVT, you need to get to the ER now. So, okay, well get to a hospital, big brother, basically. Yes. So I went to the hospital, I went to the ER, and I'll try to keep this concise because it's, it's amazing to me how, how much God showed up in so many and throughout the entire process even to today. So I, I

 could just brag on God through this whole thing for an hour or two.

But I walked into the ER, I walked into an ER of a vascular hospital. I was not aware that this hospital was a vascular hospital when I walked in, so there was that. And I was in line to sign in, there were three or four people in front of me, an ER doctor walked through the lobby and stopped and asked how he could help me. That doesn't, doctors, not bad, but that's just, that's not their job. That doesn't happen. They don't just stop and ask you what you're, what's going on. So I got literally, but verbatim, I got the words out, yeah, so there's something going on with my arm, it's starting to, and he cut me off. He said, you've got a DVT. And he ran off and grabbed three nurses and they took me back. I never actually got signed in at the front desk. They immediately got ultrasound things done, found the clot, it had about a four inch blood clot. I didn't know at the time until they took it out and showed me, but it was about a four inch blood clot, about the size, around, of a small highlighter, about that big around. And it was setting under my right clavicle, right, in the neck, about an inch and a half away from the main vein that goes back to your heart. A lot of this I didn't find out till after surgery. So they went through my right arm here, went up and pulled the clot out and showed me the clot through the first, that they did the surgery the next morning because we were trying to find an anesthesiologist, uh, so we couldn't do it that night or they would have. But through that first 18 hours, 12 hours, however long I was there, I probably heard 60 times, do not move, do not do anything strenuous. When I sat up to try to get off the ultrasound table, they actually, no, no, don't let us do it for you because they were so scared that part of it or all of it was going to slip and hit that main vein. They told me afterwards that had that happen, they could have prayed and done open heart surgery but likelihood wasn't very good. I was probably going to had a heart attack and not make it had that happen. So basic short form of what happened is I had a, my rib and the passage between my first rib and my clavicle is too narrow. It's been going on my whole life. There were spots on the blood

 clot that were white, there had been scar tissue that had been adhering to that vein and had been catching and stopping the blood clot that was forming every time I would do certain motions. I've done semi-pro football, done rugby, I've done MMA competitions, I've done Jujitsu all for the entirety of my life, so many things. And I look back and I can laugh now, but I could look back on and I tried to knock part of that clot loose, so many high impact things and thank God that time bomb just never slipped and hit that vein that was an inch and a half away and dropped into my heart. So they ended up going in later and moving five inches of my first rib to create space, was a second surgery I had.

Tony Caffey: Yeah, you're a pretty healthy person. Yeah. And you work out. Yeah, more than I do. And so I mean this whole thing kind of hit me as shocking, like, wait, Levi, you know, should that happen to you know somebody older or somebody like myself? Um, yeah. So I mean, walk me through the emotions of that because am I right in saying 100 years ago you would not have survived this?

Levi Hietree: Yeah, we, so we were joking around and it was a little bit of dark humor but we were joking around the night before of actually some, someone had brought up that comment of, well, what do you do if you're sick in like 1850? What were you going to do? And they said, well, just blood let them, just cut them open and let the blood out. And what, and in reality that's what they did for a lot of things. And I, I don't know what they would have done in this situation. Like how would they have found where that clot was? Like sure, they can see, okay, the arm was, what was swelling. But I, I don't think that's one of those that you make it out of. I really, I, I don't, I'm not an expert in the medical field, but you know, we've, it's one of those blessings that I think especially in the American culture we, we overlook the fact that we live better than kings three, four hundred years ago, just in our natural everyday life. The average American lives better, drives around a car that has an air conditioner. We can go as much as people complain about the healthcare system, we can go to a hospital and get this stuff checked out and figure it out. We absolutely live like kings. And so it, on the asking about the emotional

 aspect of it, originally it, it took a little bit to settle in to, it was just such a bam, bam, bam, okay, here, here, here. And I'm having to talk to so many different people to settle in on what was really going on. And I think a lot of it they didn't want to make my heart rate jump or scare me or anything. So they were trying to be very calmed me down. Yeah, they were trying to be, don't move, don't do anything because I just, I was not, part of me was not taking it serious in the sense that I wasn't thinking, but they're like, no, stop, let us do it for you. So there, it finally did kind of settle in and I realized and uh, that though this is, this is a big deal. I mean, blood clots in general can, can stroke, heart attack, pulmonary, there's just a long list of things that can happen from that. And there were, there was a period of time, you know, I think I talked with you when one of the times you came into the hospital and visited and I know I had talked to a couple, a couple other pastors. I've always been intrigued or interested because I have family members that are scared of death that are very scared of death. It is a motivating factor in their life. And I'm not necessarily scared of death, you know, I know the other side, but, but the process, I've always been curious about, okay, what is that going to look like and how am I going to react in that moment? And you know, obviously I didn't die by the grace of God. He's still got something for me to hear, to do. But there was very much a realization at some point that hit me of, I could close my eyes and this could be it. We're not promised tomorrow. And it was peace. You know, maybe it was peace because I'm still going to continue on. But whatever the scenario, in that time, in that moment, there was a brief, okay, wait, this is a very real situation. And then it was just, it was calm. I was had God stepped in and obviously, I mean, I've got anxieties on all kinds of things. But in that moment, I was, I was, it was peaceful. I was excited about, all right, God, is there a testimony here? And whether or not I come through this, use it. Uh, he was even while I was in the hospital, my, I was messaging my family and some of them were at different points of the scenario more concerned and scared and had the sharp reality of I'm healthy.

Levi Hietree: You know, I'm, I'm the one that's eating healthy, the nutrition specialist, the personal trainer that's always up and active and you can't slow down. And well, now he's in hospital for 14 days and then on bed rest at home for 14 days. That turned on a dime and no one saw it coming. And it was very much, uh, I'll just read it. James 4:13. So from on from there, come now, you say, who's saying, today or tomorrow we'll go to such and such a city and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit. Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow, you are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away. And it continues on. But it was very much that reality because this could be it.

Tony Caffey: That verse could be depressing, but you're talking about it in terms of like it's encouraging.

Levi Hietree: Encouraging. It's, it's a motivating factor. And I, I think primarily so because of this church and a lot of God obviously, but of putting me in this church and the focus on the kingdom mindset. You, you talk about the kingdom mindset. Even Steven Armstrong, who was here before you talked about eyes for eternity, same perspective, same concept, just verbalized a little bit differently. And having that mindset in understanding and I think a lot of believers slightly understand that eternity is eternity. Like we can't quantify it really that it's, it's forever. And this is fleeting in the blink of an eye and it can be over just like that. But it, it's, there's that excitement. We've talked about the mission statement and the eagerness of Jesus come back, we, we long to be with you, of there is that eagerness of, or of maybe this is that time. But there's also a motivating factor in how are you utilizing the time you're here, the time that you are given, what are you doing with it? So when, uh, when all this happened, I sat as I mentioned, I was in the hospital for 14 days and didn't have a lot to do. And um, I, you can't keep me still, so that was a challenge. But I just thought all over the Bible, like where, where are the connection points? I thought about the Lazarus raising from the dead and then the, the lepers being, that they connect for a reason in my brain, I promise. But the, the leper being healed and Jesus healing the person and saying, hey, don't go tell these

 people, keep it quiet for now, and summarizing obviously. And all these different people in, in one ran until the Pharisees or the Sadducees, hey, Jesus just did this. And just that excitement of glorifying God and that testimony of, look what he did for me. And just my hypothetical even thinking about Lazarus is what did he do after that point? Did he, like, there's no way he just denied Jesus and didn't do anything with the time he had. And when my mind went to the parable of the talents of, am I, I'm always the hypercritical of myself, but am I doing enough with the time that I've had? But in a motivated, absolutely, and encouraging and motivating sense in the fact that he's given me grace and given me this testimony to be able to use and encourage others. Already I've had so many conversations that God's put in front of me with people of, man, what's going on? I've got this health issue like, helped me through this. And it's just been amazing.

Tony Caffey: So one of the emotions sounds like gratitude that you're thankful for living in the time that you did. Yeah. And the time when they would bleed you if you were sick or whatever. Yeah. Uh, I hear you say peace is something that I assume you would say is even a divine thing that's absolutely produced. Um, also a sense of urgency maybe in terms of the use of your life. Um, I, I mean that's, that's helpful, Levi. I mean, you're, you're not that old, you're, you know, 38, 30, mid, late thirties. Um, let me ask you this. So how do you process, uh, death as this kind of thing that hangs over all of us?

Levi Hietree: Yeah, yeah. So even coming out of surgeries and in rehab and kind of in this time of slowly having to work back in it of, you, I've never necessarily been one, I mean, obviously kids at some point always think they're invincible, right? There's that, I'll be fine, yada, yada, move on. And I've always had this that aspect of whatever happens happens. But it, it did kind of loom and, well, how am I going to fail? I was very curious how much of my life is going to alter. Like, am I going to look at this situation of, oh, I don't want to move my arm here because it, what if it happens again? And there's, so there's a brief, brief period of time that like, maybe a couple hours of that kind of thought and process through that and then just praying about it and realizing

 and understanding that God has given me this tool and he obviously protected me for something, to do something. And ultimately once that thing is done, that once my time is done and whatever he's got me on this earth to be done, my time is up and we all have that time at some point. And it, it can sound daunting, I suppose, it can sound scary. I think if your perspective, I want to say if your perspective isn't right, but I think even at some aspect the human flesh, the aspect is going to that unknown. There's some fear and that unknown of it. But so it can be an intimidating thought process and, and I get that. I mean, I was absolutely there. But from my perspective of it, the encouragement that I would have had, and I know other people have had this testimony that in that moment God brought the peace, it was absolutely God.

Tony Caffey: How much does, because I know you've, we've talked about this a lot and I know this is one of your, your theological, uh, convictions, how much does God's sovereignty factor into your thinking and then maybe also the peace that you experience?

Levi Hietree: Yeah, absolutely. I think it solidified in my mind, uh, his sovereignty and the fact that he is in control of everything that nothing happens without his stamp of approval. That it is, it's going to happen if he wants it to happen and if he doesn't want it to happen, it's not. Uh, there have been times in my past and in my walk that I have gone through so much turmoil and stress that I've sat and wondered, like, why is this happening? It's never been a, you are, you are in control, right? It's just a frustration of, I don't understand this. It's always been that approach. God's sovereignty in this has shined. I mean, the fact that an ER doctor stopped and talked to me, the fact that I walked into that hospital and without digging into the financials and everything too much, but I walked in that hospital without, uh, without insurance because I have never been able to figure out or afford insurance as with how things are. And the hospital stepped in, helped me through a process of getting insurance and then paid parts of my deductibles for me. Like those are all to me, God did those things. I didn't ask for those things. Like just watching all of this play out how it did. And even funnily enough, like it, I don't

 believe in coincidences. I think if you believe in sovereignty, it's kind of hard to believe in coincidence in a sense. But uh, funnily enough, that, that scripture we were talking about that was mentioned in James 13, 14, the day of my second surgery where they went in through my chest and cut out a section of my body, it cut out five inches of my rib, was the day that night it was a Wednesday and that night we was, this church was teaching on that section of James. Like it to me, that's just a little laughable stamp of seeing like, I got this. And so I think it's, it's, it's a little bit of a perspective ship, it shift, it solidifies his sovereignty and from, it's a reminder in for me personally.

Tony Caffey: Yeah, well it's good to see you back and uh, strong again. Um, you know, we do deal with things, uh, like, you know, Parkinson's disease, my mother-in-law died of ALS. Um, and that was a long drawn out process, not as long as it is for some people. But I mean, how would you encourage somebody who's maybe, you know, my dad would always say, I'm not afraid of death, I'm afraid of dying.

Levi Hietree: Sure.

Tony Caffey: Yeah. Because just, I mean that is a terrifying prospect, you know, a long drawn out battle with cancer for instance, can be really hard on an individual or on a family. How would you want to encourage somebody going through something like that?

Levi Hietree: Yeah, yeah, sometimes that can be a tough one to find the right words, you know, it's because everyone's at their own place. Just the encouragement of if you're a believer, trust God. God's with you. I, I believe he'll, he'll show up in that moment, however he will. And if you like your dad said and like I had said, that I always questioned that process of death, if you trust and know that he's sovereign, trust his process. And you know, you'd like to think that he'll, he'll make it painless. And thankfully in this damn world, a lot of people suffer in some aspect, but it's not as bad as it could be without the modern medicine and availability as possible that we have. So there's, there's encouragement even in that. And just I can't imagine having to go through what I went through without modern medicine and just that, that blessing and seeing everything as a blessing. But back to the point, I really do think it's, it's trusting God and trusting the process and, and

 getting to that place. And if, if there's a challenge in it, if there's a me challenging someone that might not be there or might be scared or might be struggling and suffering, I like part of me feels bad saying, hey, you're suffering, but trust God more. And it's, but look into yourself and see, is there some part of me that doesn't trust what's God doing right now? And is there some part of me that's fighting what he's trying to use that, utilize it for, if that makes sense?

Tony Caffey: Yeah, good. I one of my favorite quotes comes from Lottie Moon. She might not have been the first person to say it, but you know, she was a missionary in Africa and people thought she was crazy going or, uh, China, not Africa, people thought she was crazy to go to China. Yeah. As a woman, a single woman, you know, in a place that uh, was dangerous for people to travel. And she would tell people, I am invincible until God calls me home. And I mean, there's such a a peace and a confidence in that. Yeah. Um, and I think to, you touched on this there, that creates in us as Christians a beautiful sense of urgency. Our life is a vapor, you know, we're, we're going to be gone soon. And uh, you know, one of the things that's great about, you know, everything in eternity is going to be better than now. Everything. Yeah. The only thing that's better now than an eternity is that we can have an impact on eternity. We won't have that. Yeah. You know, the uh, you know, it'll be our opportunities to evangelize will be over when we're in the New Jerusalem. Our opportunities to win people to Christ, to live for Christ in a fallen world. I mean, that's, that's just this vapor right now. So, uh,

Levi Hietree: That is absolutely where my mind went. And with the parable of the talents, in reality, you said the life's a vapor. Even if we lived 120 years old, it's, it's a blink of an eye compared to eternity. Like you cannot quantify how, how short of a time period that is. And so every day has, should have a motivating urgency to it. Not a panic, but a motivating urgency to it of, Lord, how do I glorify you today in everything I'm doing?

Tony Caffey: Good. Thank you, Levi. Appreciate that.

Levi Hietree: Thank you.

Tony Caffey: Yeah. I was 21 just a few days ago and now I'm really, you know, such and such years old. So, well, thanks for being a part of this Theology in Action. For

 more videos like this and podcasts, you can go to our, our website, vbvf.org. Also, make sure you check out the video that Levi and I did on the subject of joy, and we also did a video on the subject of love and how that's lived out in the Christian life. Stay tuned for more episodes like this of Theology in Action.