What is an Elder - Understanding the Role: Theology in Action

Tony Caffey: thank you welcome everybody to Theology and action my name is Tony Caffey and I'm here today with Mr Mike Morris my fellow Elder at verse by verse Fellowship my friend my fellow preacher here at verse by verse and we have an important subject today that we're discussing something that we're both very passionate about because we serve as Elders in this church and that means we meet we deliberate we pray we argue even sometimes as we lead our church so let me just uh just start with this question Mike what what is an elder that seems kind of a weird term what does that mean 

Mike Morris: it doesn't mean we're all old but that is some but if you looked at all the elders across you know churches Christian churches that might be a common feature but that's not what it really means what it's meant to convey from scripture is people who have been men who have been in uh in the faith for a significant period of time there's no number given all that the scripture says is not recently converted to Christianity or to the faith so that means someone that's walked some walks some miles you know lives some life in in the faith and come up against some adversity and and uh had a chance to operate and serve and minister in a wide variety usually of settings but that that's uh those are the people that the Lord calls to serve in a leadership role in a way that uh scripture identifies with the name elder or bishop or overseer but the word through those terms because that can get confusing because there's so many different sure probably the most self-descriptive one would be overseer because it's based on that on the verb right to oversee or to lead uh the the word rule is used in many English translations that that kind of it Troublesome people when you think about that oh they're ruling the church or they're governing the church well in a technical sense perhaps but I think the the right word to use is to lead uh rather than govern we're not sitting back uh and Peter tells us don't Lord it over those you know in the church and and an elder anyone who's serving as an elder and finds himself doing that should resign because that is not what scripture seeks out for the role of an elder in fact it prohibits it so if that's where a person if that's the reason a person would Aspire a man would aspire to be an elder I think he needs to really check his motive for even serving as an elder but it does mean that you take on leadership roles across a wide variety of Ministries across the church as a whole uh it sometimes means that you certain Lanes of ministry like children's or men's or women's or discipleship or worship or preaching and teaching things like that it doesn't necessarily mean that but it can I mean you know some Churches organize their older boards that way where you've got a portfolio if you will others they're all more or less you know generalists within the church and so that's uh their their god-called God equipped God uh appointed leaders within the church that uh and yet while they're under shepherds in the sense that Christ is the great Shepherd and they're serving as under Shepherds over a body uh believers you made the point recently that they're still sheep right we're still they're still part of the congregation uh and only in that one role of elder or or overseer are they distinctive at all our daily walk with Christ we are all sheep beneath his authority as the Lord so we have this word Elder Greek presbyteras uh that's um first Peter 5 Titus one then we have overseer episcopos right which uh we see the interchangeability of those terms you know Paul goes throughout in the book of Acts and he sets up elders and they're overseeing but then we have at least in the North American context right Pastor you know and and I'm a pastor Pastor Tony people call me that when they text me hey Pastor Tony you're as well a pastor you uh preach you focus on that as part of your ministry role right so walk us through that what is that the same as an elder different from an elder the the place that Pastor teacher is mentioned and and I regard it as a hyphenated term Pastor teacher they're mentioned together in the book of Ephesians and that is uh we might use if we were being really technically accurate to the meaning of the word menace it's to be a shepherd shepherd to be a Shepherd to Shepherd sheep which is a great image it's the perfect Motif that's the reason the Lord used it that's why he challenged Peter on the shores of Galilee feed my sheep tend my Lambs feed my sheep those sorts of of mandates if you will I think it's too strong a term to Those whom he has called to be elders uh and Shepherd they're Shepherds of the sheep now can you be a pastor and not be an elder yes you can can you be um in fact there there's associate pastors frequently or not considered to be elders can you be an elder without having the gifting of a pastor teacher yes although you must be able to teach according to scripture First Timothy three now but but you've made the distinction and I think it's a valid one that that Pastor teacher in the North American context in the west largely and in certainly in recent centuries is a vocational rule and that's someone that would be considered worthy of double honor and meaning but not only the honor in a more non-tangible sense but also the tangible uh compensation for that role as a career as a occupation so Pastor teacher is someone that is n't just an elder like oh I'm going to worry about the lease on the building or I'm going to worry about getting our I.T fixed or things like that no this is a person who's in the flock right in the midst of the sheet leading caring for ministering teaching applying the word of God to people's problems every day hearing their concerns praying with them ministering to them in the most you know wholesome Wholesome Way that we can imagine it that's being the pastor teacher and those people are often but not always also called to be elders and so that's a that that's a full-time thing that's a lot of that's a lot of work but but at the same time I've been goodness privileged blessed to get to serve in both those roles and even here at adverse diverse Fellowship as well as other churches but and you've seen a lot of churches and you've traveled quite a bit in the military so I'm sure you've seen different ways in which church governance is structured and the local church so we here at verse by verse um have a plurality of Elders right now uh help me understand why a plurality why is that important why do we do that do we have to do that the text of scripture would indicate yes when when Paul tells Timothy to appoint Elders in every city at a time in the church where likely there was one fellowship per City I'm saying different than today uh that that's pretty clear teaching I think the the fact that that's a plural word for a fellowship for a single congregation yep I don't I don't no one who knows human beings very well would say yeah we ought to we ought to invest all the power all the authority in a church in one person that is such a bad idea and it and that's not just true of course for churches that's true for human institutions and organizations of all times but certainly in a church the I think the the scripture is really clear that the intent of the Lord as he began to shape and mold and build and and give guidance to and give scriptural instruction to the early Church in the first century second century it was to set up a governance structure that involved authoritative leaders elders but multiple Elders in every church and the qualifications are clear they're not they're not ambiguous they're not trying to be Crystal Clear like a certain age or a certain occupation that's not the the point is character the point is who you are as a as a Believer right uh and then you look for those people but that is best lived out in the context of of a group of Elders no one should be alone in that role right so that uh the board that I've set on at a previous church and the board that we're part of now has the blessing of having here six of us that are elders and we do argue and we do not in a not in a mean way but I mean we have some spirited debates and that's as it should be because when when there are decisions meaningful decisions important decisions to be made in the life of the church that intent and that responsibility falls to the elders and so uh we don't all share the same mind except we as we have the mind of Christ all in but but in the way we live that out and the views we take on certain issues can certainly differ and but you know the beautiful thing is and I think this is just the work of the Holy Spirit as he begins to bring that group of six men together we do find consensus uh and it's you would think oh you're constantly voting and it's going to be four two or five one or that thing no we don't we we stop we talk we pray we look into scripture in depth great depth and we look for that way forward that honors God blesses the church and executes our responsibilities appropriately and I think that's that is such a joy and that's why the Lord honors and rewards Elders because he's he's calling out men to serve in that role and when you do it well you're blessed here you're going to be rewarded in in heaven too but there is such a blessing here for that work there's even a crown associated with Crowders who serve well in First Peter five whatever that means I mean that's a pretty neat thing right to think about and there are in terms of eldership as a uh a reality in the first century world that predated the churches um right you know Bill Mounds has a pretty extended section on this on this commentary on First Timothy it talks about the Jewish background to that and the way in which synagogues were structured even going back to Moses she had Moses this great leader in um if you remember the stories father-in-law shows up it's like yeah you need some help yeah you're crazy man you're gonna you know die in early death death if you keep this up yeah so there there's something to that the the shared Collective burden of leading the church no one man can really do that and and you see it post-resurrection in the in the apostles yeah they continue to do that you see it exhibited in Jerusalem in the book of Acts and the way that the that the leaders in the in the in the Church of Jerusalem came together and debated their way through the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15. that's significant you know so seeing that uh work itself out in practice in the pages of the New Testament I think should give any Elder board today hope that yes we can work together yes we can reach consensus and so and and we in fact we must I believe and so you it's an it's a important responsibility and I think that's when one aspires to it and if God calls you to it you should execute with all the strength and humility you have it means a lot to me as a pastor to be on an elder board and to have that shared uh shouldering of of the leadership responsibilities and you know I'm the youngest guy on our Elder board now um there's some debate on how old or whether I'm old I'm 44 but there was a time when I was even younger than that serving on an elder board as a young pastor and it was so valuable to have the collective uh Council and Leadership of other men serving alongside of me many of those men all of them at that time were older than me and had more experience so um so that's good and and I find that a comfort as a senior pastor to know that it doesn't all hang on me it's something that other men can shoulder with me and encourage me even as we we do wrestle and and argue through issues I want to ask you this question because you're you're a military man you are your retired colonel in the United States Air Force so thanks for serving our country you're welcome it's been an honor and I I guess just for the benefit of your experience you know you've been in the military world how is the church different than the US military that's a huge question I know but I mean how would the because you do have kind of that you know report to one person and the hierarchy that's part of the military world it's different in the church uh it is it is different in the church and one of the things that uh I think is a miscon common misconception of the military is that it is it is uh it is hierarchical in the sense that there is there are ranks yes there is a rank structure there's a grade structure there's an organizational structure that's pretty uh solid right and that that is part of the culture in every military branch however the best leaders that I found in the military were those that uh and I don't know if they were always I'd many times they were far senior to me I didn't know them personally but what I observed in their behavior was a a servant heart to the people whom they LED okay and it's captured in a in a you'll hear people talk about their Commander uh at whatever level or a leader of some sort you know and and I think this is where it begins to cross over the church there was a sense of of uh well-being because you knew that leader cared for you uh had your best interests at heart was willing to to to fight for you in whatever way they needed to and you'll hear someone from time to time say I'd walk across the street and take a bullet for him yep and that you see that in the in in the military structure yes but I think that the the best uh churches are where we all will do that for Christ and we're church members also have a deep sense of connectedness to their elders and they know that those Elders are there uh to to love them to support them to Shepherd them to minister to them when they need something in the middle of the night they know who to call and we're on everyone's speed dial that would be uh you know the pastors and the elders those who are placed in in positions of ministry uh in the local church need to be the ones that those local church members call and that the the sense I think in the military the best organizations are the ones that operate according to Christian principles whether it's intentional on the part of the leader that kind of sacrificial nature a sacrificial servant nature uh to their leadership and those are the ones that engender loyalty they engender commitment on the part of their their unit or their command in some fashion uh the sense of of a shared sense of mission in the military is another I think connected point to a church we all have in as a Christian Fellowship a a common sense of mission we're not all going different directions right we're all uh the the Great Commission drives our actions it drives our attitudes it drives our culture it it we we're the things we're doing all should be pointing toward taking the gospel to the world and discipling those who are already in the church and so that common sense of mission the common sense of leadership and a servant not someone I mean the same principles that that Peter gives Elders don't Lord it over those in your church should apply in every Human Institution you saw it break down in the Roman Empire where people were heavy-handed authoritative you can be you can have authority without being authoritarian yep and that I think is the best leaders somehow managed to do that no matter the con the the context they're serving it you you we've got the scripture to teach us how to do that in the church and that's why Elders have no place to to um rise up and try to be some some over lording authority figure within the church that is not the role that they're playing so forgive my ignorance I just I just don't know in the military world do they have consensus based decision-making like I I see like that joints Chief of Staff you know that kind of group where there is a decision but is that normative for like you know Randolph here or different Services have different cultures what might be normative inside one like the Air Force might or the Navy might not be normative within the Marine Corps of the army so Americans often that are not associated all with the Department of Defense military we'll just say oh it's the military and kind of paint everybody with the same broad brush culturally they're we're very different services are very different space force is going to be another one right that has its own culture The Joint Chiefs there's even a special room that they can meet in called the tank and it's just where they sit down and they hash it out and they do reach consensus okay and they have to agree or do they vote or um they generally what happens inside that room is not always known to those outside that room but I can tell you this when and this is true of Elders as well you may go through serious heated debates right spirited conversations about what's right and what's wrong but when you reach consensus when you step out of that context of the debate in front of the church or in front of the nation or the entire Department of Defense right you you whatever decision is made we all commit to support that decision the conversation has happened the debate has happened we've reached a decision and now we're going to move forward and act upon that decision uh what you don't need is public sniping right uh about the decision that was made and and partisanship and a spirit of party if you will and and well this group it almost looks like First Corinthians well I'm for this guy or I'm for the I'm for Paul or I'm from a pollister I I follow Jesus or I follow Peter that Paul hits that early and often in that book correcting it because that is not the way that a church needs to needs to move forward but uh it where you see failure in the military sense I think is where that is that doesn't happen effectively I've seen him more in the church the and that's why we have an emphasis on consensus building because with the politicizing if you start to vote and then inevitably that leads to polarizing and then you have factions like this you know I voted for this or I voted for that or um and you really want to avoid that as best you can to have that Spirit of unity even if it takes longer to get to that consensus if you have to argue it out over a few meetings and and sometimes it does and I've been in situations in other churches where that was exactly the case and we we would we've we came together on an issue we talked about it we realized we had differing widely differing views or at least firmly held differing views and we would just pray we would stop and pray yeah and just seek the Lord and ask him to guide us in wisdom and then eventually sometimes over days sometimes over weeks you would come to the point that you came to a common mind now does that mean that that everyone thinks the same way on an elder board or in the military for that sense no absolutely not but there is a commitment to that shared sense of purpose that shared identity in a sense right that shared mission that does bind you together Beyond personal differences that you may always have and we'll always have I've been in enough churches as you have right that you can see personal differences however the cause of Christ transcends all of that and and the best churches begin to operate consistently on that shared Mission shared context and you see leadership moving that way and I think churches churches have a much easier time right following leaders that are that are leading in that way and I think it's just you begin to see the scripture actually lived out in front of you and it's so much better yeah Elders model so many things for the church they model character they model commitment to family that's an expectation of them but also their modeling Unity they're modeling the setting aside of your own kind of you know Personal Agenda for the sake of a greater cause so let me ask you this when we think about an elder we're you know Elders aren't going to stay on the Elder board forever the church WIll Outlast all of the eldership including the pastor um so the church needs to be replicating and raising up leaders in the church to help you know fill the role of Elder moving forward what are we looking for I think you start out looking for for men who are and just let me be clear the scriptural guidance is clear on that point it is to be a man uh can women be leaders yes absolutely in a wide variety of contexts very effectively I in my military career I've I've served with under more female commanders I think than male Commanders and they've been awesome really appreciated their leadership and followed them with a whole heart right so in the church the the the scripture is clear on that point now so what kind of person are you looking for you find the carrot the the description of the character of an elder and you begin looking around the church and you're looking for men that fit that or are approaching that and you've you get to know them hey wouldn't you come to faith in Christ yep not a recent congress not a recent convert and then you start to to work your way through those character descriptions in Scripture uh how do they handle money how do they handle Temptation how do they handle prayer how do they handle their family things like that should they have family uh and those sorts of of questions you begin to look for the people that are already serving actively serving Faithfully uh gifted living out diligently living out that giftedness in the context of the look church and then you you perhaps ask them to and this is a this is a professional development tool in the military another point where it kind of crosses over when you see someone that's really performing well you give them something new yeah now try that over there hey you did great now try that over there right something new every time and it brought me he was hurtful with little be faithful well faithful and much and you begin to see a person grow in their in their capability in their giftedness if you will and then you see them execute or exercise that giftedness in different contexts can you lead in children's what about with the senior adults what about in in a mission environment what about that and you begin to see people uh not box checking but you begin to see people that are just constantly serving looking for opportunities and then when they do serve they do it well they do it faithfully and you begin to look for those people and I think those are the folks those are the men that God is you're watching him train them and grow them up into the leaders that the church is going to need that's part of our role as Elders is to look for those men who will take our places yeah someday that's Paul's instruction to Timothy go look for those kind of those kind of guys and then you teach First Timothy 2 2 you teach them to to to pour into other men's lives so that they will be able to teach others also who will be able to teach others also who will be able to teach others also and you see that that train of of discipleship began to grow absolutely I and I I want to just emphasize too in first Timothy 3 the first characteristic is you gotta want it so nobody needs to be talked into it right so and I think aspiration can sometimes be downplayed as like some kind of selfish motive no I mean there's good aspiration there's good ambition and in a sense you you gotta want it because it's hard and you'll quit you know if somebody can talk you into it they can talk you out of it right so and frankly that's something that I have not heard and I really appreciate about your teaching on the elders that that role the first Peter 5 Passage because I don't know that any of us would have put it in those terms but I think the men that I've known that have served effectively as Elders which is just about all of them there's none that I would maybe one exception that I would say wasn't very effective as a leader as an elder uh didn't shrink back from the call to that role yeah they might not have sought it out and talked to the elders and said hey next time there's an opening on the board I hope you'll consider me I I don't remember ever anyone saying that I didn't say that myself but when the church consistently turns to people to men to to say will you lead this will you lead this week and and you see I think the Lord Works through that I think the Lord is beginning to you know will begin to identify men within a within a fellowship within a congregation that he intends to call out as Leaders at an elder level earlier in their life and they'll get opportunities to serve to lead uh and and that that says it should be I think and and eventually the it breaks down the barriers of of sometimes fear or overweening ambition yep that are unseemly and inappropriate right both are there's a ditch on one side of the road that says I want this worse than life right or the ditch on the other side of the road is I will do this at in no circumstance will I ever what you're looking for is someone who's not afraid but isn't willing to sacrifice you know their their integrity and everything else to do it and get them up in the middle of the road and say this is this is where the Lord has a role for you to serve and then they're prepared that's a sign of maturity to the the ambition that's mixed with humility right that's necessary in that leadership capacity because you got to have the ambition you got to have the want to to press through the challenges of it right but then you also have the humility you have to have the humility and the teachability to grow because and that's another thing is Elders you've done it in several churches and been a part of our Elder board here you you grow into the role too you you sure you add skills as you do it and you learn from other men who have eldered longer than you have and you know that's that's part of part of actually um discipleship for us we're growing as disciples as elders and and adding more skills and learning and uh being better equipped even as we go we don't leave the Elder board after you know we come off rotation as we came on of course I'm at infant item as the senior pastor so I don't yeah I don't get to rotate the rest of us get that sabbatical of sorts so it's not much of one but still and different churches do it different ways but there's uh the modeling church church members should be able to look at their Elders yes say that that man is still progressing as a disciple yes he's still growing as a disciple he he doesn't believe he's arrived he because he hasn't right but he's still seeking to to stretch in different areas of ministry do some different things maybe he hasn't done before see where the Lord can use him while he's still fulfilling his obligations and his responsibilities as an elder I think that's a powerful witness that's absolutely stasis is the enemy of discipleship we're always moving for and always advancing until until we go home until you go home one final question so not everybody listening is an elder or uh you know aspires to be an elder which is fine um but you know everybody as a Christian should be involved in a church that has elders and is being led um how can a parishioner a congregant uh be a blessing to those who leave the church right I will say you're right not every Church governs itself the way that that our conviction here at verse Bible verse Fellowship is about Elders Elder leadership yeah uh for us over the years in our family it has become a a true litmus test I I would not I can't picture a a time or a place where the Lord would say I want you to go to a church that's not being governed according to the New Testament so so it's a it's a vital vital piece of of the way a church is organized it's got to govern itself correctly according to the scripture um so no not everyone is uh not everyone's called to do that not everyone aspires to do that how can how can congregants help um there's nothing better than prayer there's nothing better than prayer you've got to pray for us like our lives and your lives dependent on it right because in a in a fellowship sense they do sheep that are not well shepherded yeah don't do well yeah in a flock they they don't and our great Shepherd Jesus Christ there's no question he is the Lord is my shepherd I shall not want for anything right so we know that but in a human sense the best thing a church member can do for him or herself and for the good of the church one of the best things perhaps the best thing but one of the things that I think is is an obligation on everyone's part is and to their benefit is to pray for their leaders because they benefit if the leaders are following Christ more diligently more closely more thoroughly right and and I think the whole church benefits from that so pray number two would be encourage speak a word of encouragement take Pastor Appreciation Week seriously and if there were an elder Appreciation Week you know maybe that's something we should try and and it's not that we need all the positive strokes and things like that but it does it is encouraging when when people come up and say thank you they may not agree with every decision the board makes they may well not but when I've been in churches where I was not an elder but it was an elder-led Church you know who the elders are and you still reach out and encourage them and pray for them and um when you see them give them a hug and a handshake you know and so I would say prayer and encouragement would be the two things that are just indispensable to a well-functioning healthy Elder board good Mike I'll just close out our time by reading from the book of Hebrews this is another way just to bless your elders obey your leaders and submit to them for they are keeping watch over your souls yikes I know that ought to be the most sobering well there's many sobering passages for elders that's one of them right there we're kite that's our that's our role and it's a challenge and then the other people's ads as those who will have to give an account let them do this with joy and not with groaning for that would be of no advantage to you it's an advantage to the whole church body that we have a good relationship between elders and those who are Elder 

Tony Caffey: so well thanks for joining us uh my thanks to Mike Morris Colonel Mike Morris for joining us Pastor Mike Morris stay tuned for more uh theology in action from verse by verse fellowship and then you can check out our preaching and our live stream service services on Wednesday and on Sunday you can do that at our website messiahbible.org