Talking About The Fear of God: Theology in Action

Levi: welcome back to theology in action I'm Levi high tree how are you doing today Pastor Tony. 

Pastor Tony: good Levi good to see you man. 

Levi: yeah yeah we got a fun topic today I know I ran it by you uh recently to see if it was one you're interested in do a little bit of research I know it's a topic that you are you have some passion about and so do I uh and just as some uh backstory of how this one came up this actually came up uh the topic is the fear of the Lord yeah and the topic actually came up in a conversation Sunday morning between Services uh with someone who helps us out here at church Peter He was discussing and I won't say any names but uh Pastor who was a big Pastor in the 80s and got himself into some trouble and served jail time and came out and in an interview at some point he was discussed they were at they asked him because he he kind of it seemingly turned things back around and they asked him what happened how did you stray so far and how did you get back here and his comment his quote was well at that time I loved Jesus but I didn't know fear of the Lord wow okay yeah I didn't hear that so that was kind of the interesting route of you know we could talk about that I'd like that so uh just broad very general I'll hand it to you if you're the Lord what do you think? 

Pastor Tony: yeah I guess it's kind of weird the way you framed it you know you're really passionate about the subject the fear of the Lord right but uh maybe the context for that is that I'm an Old Testament guy and we have these explicit statements about the fear of the Lord in the Book of Proverbs and the Book of Ecclesiastes ends with an amazing statement about the fear of the Lord and how essential that is to our even our health and our understanding of the world Psalms talks about it and even I think it's Isaiah 66 2 where the Lord honors those who tremble at his word you know so we live in America we live in a place where we're really chummy with Jesus we wear silly t-shirts that say Jesus is my homeboy and we I think in some ways are so familiar with Jesus so close that that familiarity has bred a kind of contempt for his awesomeness even the word awesome you know the Lego Movie sings silly songs about it and that word doesn't mean what it used to mean right but uh so I I do in a sense want to recapture the fearsomeness of God this God is not somebody to be trifled with right and that comes through clearly in the Old Testament but it's not just an Old Testament thing when Jesus shows up in the Book of Revelation he's got a sword coming out of his mouth he's got a tattoo on his thigh he's about to you know crack some skulls if I can say it that way I mean he's a fearsome person in the Book of Revelation and it's not the Buddy Buddy Jesus that we're always so so comfortable with now there's a balance to be struck down and I hope that we get into it we have a good kind of fear and we have a bad kind of fear right we have even instruction in the New Testament about the limitations of fear and how our love should cast out a certain kind of fear so we'll get into that hopefully a little bit but I do want to say that the in terms of what the Bible presents to us the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom it brings good to our life it's good to have a God that to be feared who's in control of our universe we would rather have that God than not have anybody like that in control of our universe and even even this last week I referenced this before we started this podcast reading in my devotions Psalm 145 verse 19 not a passage that we reference a lot when we talk about the fear of the Lord but the psalmist says he the Lord fills fulfills the desires of those who fear Him he always hears their cry and saves them there's a sense in which God is responsive and wants us to rightly fear Him and we we should have that and we can have that without it becoming some kind of terrier induced you know I don't like God and he's just somebody to be afraid of. 

Levi: yeah it's it as you dig more you dig into the Scriptures it I can't think of a place where fear of the Lord there's any negative connotation that is tied to it in the again the proper aspect and we'll dig into of truly fearing what it looks like as I was studying and listening to different people kind of talk about this subject forget who it was but someone was talking about uh that there there's a little bit of an example of a new testic example Jesus gives us in the in the Lord's Prayer of how to come before the Lord would be thy name thy father that art in heaven Hallowed be thy name exactly and it's we have a lot of daddy god father and people kind of changing the words and changing how we go before the Lord and he talked about you know culturally there's not a lot of examples that he could go to there was a he mentioned an African culture that when children or Sons or wives go before their father they're doing it and a bowing respectful manner every time they approach them and that that's like the closest that he can come to a human comparison of how we should approach the Lord first and foremost. 

Pastor Tony: yeah and we're dealing with some things in American culture some deep issues of fatherlessness and not a real good understanding of what a father should be sometimes fathers are too indulgent with their children or their absentee or in some cases fathers project this kind of false machismo where they're like a tough guy but they don't really have the the affection for their children like they should and and we see that that on balance with the Lord um I'm speaking of God the father in this instance he is fearsome he is the creator of the universe and somebody to to be in awe over but he does show affection he does and those things are not mutually exclusive they shouldn't be for fatherhood here in America and they they aren't in terms of the Lord in the way in which he relates to us so finding a good balance of you know the fear of the Lord where we really do um have that reverence for him uh we really are all struck by him but it's not the kind of thing that induces Terror it actually induces comfort and Safety and Security to have this big powerful awesome God who is not angry at us you know through Christ he loves us and I mean that's that's precious and at the same time that brings Comfort there's even a proverb that speaks to that about how the fear of the Lord brings security and brings confidence in terms of of who we are I see that with kids you know I'm a dad so you know there's a way in which showing strength and power before my son and um having a disciplinarian mindset doesn't induce in him some kind of I'm afraid of dad but it it's Security even as long as it's not out of control Kinds of Kinds of disciplinary action so I see that in our relationship with the Lord as well absolutely the uh you use the word and I was actually going to ask you if you felt it was a good uh word it the word reverence uh is a word that people try to use in replacement of the word fear of the Lord sometimes and I think that can be okay sometimes I question if they just culturally are wanting to not stray in their string into the God is love I don't want to paint God as a mean God but so they use the word reverence but what I would agree that that's a fair word to use what yeah you know. 

Pastor Tony: words are words are tricky things so we've talked about this already so the Hebrew word is year a and that's part of the elasticity of that word the semantic range to include reverence to include fear to include um being awestruck or awesome even awe-inducing I guess would be the way to say it and I'm perfectly comfortable with with that kind of framing um I preached through Proverbs and I've preached through first John which both have this this kind of uh discussion about fear um and in both instances I I told my audience I've spent the better part of my adult life trying to understand the fear of the Lord and trying to get that balance right and I I it is important so we do have year a we also have fabas which is this Greek word for fear which we derive the word phobia from and fear is one of those words kind of like anxiety there's good anxiety there's bad anxiety kind of like Pride there's good pride and there's bad Pride it's good for me to be proud of my son but it's not good for me to be prideful about my own accomplishments that can be sinful so there's a kind of fear that's good when we fear the right thing but and we've alluded to this already first John says perfect love casts out fear right and I guess the question to add to that is fear of what you know perfect love casts out fear of the Lord in the proverb sense I don't think so fear of man yeah fear this kind of terror-induced being afraid of the Lord like he's going to destroy us no we shouldn't have that kind of fear of the Lord because we know that he loves us we know that we are in Christ we know that we're not going to receive punishment and that's part of that that first John language is tha t that fear is associated with punishment we're not going to be punished for eternity if we're in Christ Jesus so we we're awestruck by the Lord where we have a proper fear and reverence for him but at the same time we're comforted we have security knowing that this awesome fearsome God is on our side yeah and he loves us and so that's where the the balance can be struck and and if you can find that balance it's super healthy it really is Levi I mean I really want people to find that where they where they do have the the appropriate mentality about who God is and how powerful he is but at the same time he's on our side in Christ Jesus. 

Levi: so do you think going back to the original example that kind of brought this up do you think that and I have my own stance and I'll share after I get your answer that uh the that it's a scale per se or that it's one of the other between I love Jesus and I didn't fear the lord have you seen that in your life or examples of that that it could be some scale level of maturity or do you think that when they're saved that there is this reverence that there is this both the love and fear? 

Pastor Tony: well it can grow I mean the knowledge of who God is you're leading a study with some folks at church on the attributes of God so I don't know anybody who has who has studied the attributes of God who haven't who hasn't come away from that like wow God is amazing and you know I don't know anybody who's gone through a study like that and then puts on a t-shirt that says Jesus is my homeboy or something some silly thing like that um so just knowing who God is and growing in your knowledge of him is going to increase your the right kind of fear of the Lord yeah um in my experience that fear of the Lord um that has increased as I've aged but so is my love for the Lord so those aren't mutually exclusive I will say in the ways that I fear the lord my fear of man has gone down absolutely so if God is who he says he is in his word then why am I afraid of what man can do to me my fear of death has gone down all those phobias my fear of even even silly things like the fear of public speaking or the fear of uh you know the fear fear of death that's not a silly thing but you know what I mean like like my my fear of God increases my love for God increases and some of these other little anxieties and little it almost becomes a silly thing in perspective absolutely yeah yeah and that's that's maturity so do do people have that when they get saved no nobody has everything when they get saved that's something that you uh mature in in terms of your knowledge of the Lord yeah how would you answer that? 

Levi: yeah I think I would agree I I've thought about that a lot in that perspective of well is is it just this dichotomy is of is it two separate things and I don't know that they're necessarily mutually exclusive I think that there's some level of fear of the Lord and all if the gospel is being I'll caveat with this if the gospel is being spoken or preached accurately yeah okay that uh so it's not like come to Jesus in all your wildest dreams because God is love it is if if that's not the main message that there's more to it if the gospel the Full Gospel message being preached I think that there is some level of wow this God created everything knows the number of hair on my head has them in order and still cares for me who am I but he still cares for me so I think that there is absolutely a level of yet Jesus I love you I recognize what you did and some reverence as well with that the kind of the thought of on the other side and touching what I already touched on is I think that in the culture you've touched on as well in the day and age we are in a lot of people shy away from that and I think that that can create some of the lack of fear and the misunderstanding of who and what God is and not respecting him and really in a lot of ways and basically seeing them is oh yeah you saved me cool awesome see you Daddy I'm gonna go do my own thing yeah. 

Pastor Tony: well we talked about words and how fear is misunderstood we probably should do a whole podcast on love because that word is completely understandable misunderstood and I love today love is essentially equated with with sentimentality or emotion emotion you know it and you know truth is irrelevant as it relates to love right in the modern day context that is not biblical love at all right so that's part of the problem I think and you're right I mean if if people are pitched a gospel presentation that's like Jesus loves you come to him and you know all of your problems will go away and you know you'll have everything that you want and there's no real accountability to who God is and what he's done for you no repentance none of those important you know those biblical Concepts that are wrapped up in in the gospel then yeah you're it's yeah you don't even know who God is and you don't understand what the gospel is either yeah but love has to be a part of it that's what's so hard you know is that Jesus why did Jesus go to the cross and die a bloody death for us because he loved us yes that's got to be a part of the equation understood rightly. 

Levi: 100 and I always kind of equate and come back to this I've worked with kids forever and I've tried in conversation with a lot of parents so this is where this has come up but I always come back to if you truly love your kid there's going to be some level of discipline in there there's going to be some level of that as well it's not this go do whatever you want I got your back I support you in whatever you choose you're gonna no let's not shove the fork in the light socket let's let's learn why that's wrong but weird example but. 

Pastor Tony: no you're right you spank their hands as they reach for something hot that would hurt them sure there's got to be that a little bit of discipline in that and you know you you go back you touched on the uh again on the culture aspect of lack of parent parenting properly fatherhood things like that the discipline and the I've almost lost track of where I was going here but the negative effect that that happened that that has on people and not wanting to reprimand them as as your children and how they reflect that back to the relationship with God when they do either I I run into a lot of people prior to their saved of having conversation of their perspective of what Christianity and what God and whatever what we do how we live is so off skew because they're seeing it through this weird filter that of their relationships with their family or their unknown parents or whatever it is and you know it I get it they don't have another perspective but there's that begins to be some walls that you have to break down there uh circling back around I had with. 

Levi: the love aspect I have friends that uh I have discussed and they've asked hey I want to go to this church well what do you think about this how do you how do you feel about this and they'll say well hang on let's that might not be the best place they're teaching some funky things and they get defensive and it's well who are you to judge you're not supposed to judge them you're a Christian like hold on let's back up a little bit that's that's not quite what we're called to do we need to reprimand properly I'm coming off topic a little bit here you can Reign me back back in but I I think that that's important to think of as well what's the book that Rob Bell. 

Pastor Tony: oh man uh what she's he wrote A Few velvet illness was one of those big ones. 

Levi: well I was thinking of Love wins. 

Pastor Tony: oh yes okay which uh I think is kind of captures the the ethos of the day where love is kind of put together as this enablement or we're not talking about love we're talking about fear so right let me let me Circle back with fear um great analogy so John Piper talks about this time when he and his six-year-old son went over to somebody's house and when they were there this huge dog that was taller than his six-year-old son was at the door and Piper was there and they were going to meet with this person but he left something in the car and he told his son go get this out of the car before we move with this person so his son starts running and the dog is this huge dog you know how dogs are when you run it started coming round and kind of freak out and so the owner of the dog was told John Piper's son you know just walk slowly put your arm around the dog and just walk and he'll be happy he doesn't like it when people run and so that's what a little boy did and and now the the dog was perfectly um you know accommodating to him going to the car and Piper said this and this was insightful God doesn't like it when you run that's when you see the fear of the Lord his fearsomeness in that way but here's this big powerful God you you're close you're you're intimate with him you understand his power you're you're not running away from him it's a safe place it's a good place and even you can see his power displayed as other people try to threat you that dog would you know run through a brick wall in order to protect you at that point similarly in our relationship with the Lord so good analogy a good way to think about it is you know the Lord um he is fearsome he is somebody to to be in awe of and we should reverence but at the same time he's somebody that we can have security and closeness with and love and and find even our identity and how awesome and and Powerful he is and and I should say this too this might be a good way to close this up Satan's a pretty fearsome person too oh yeah and so are the demon horde so we want we want the biggest powerful God in the world and we have that and he died for us on the cross and so we don't you know there's a great song um that I've been listened to you know the things that I'm afraid of are afraid of you uh forget who who sings that do you know you know all this Kyle um look it up but you know I there's it's right I think to be afraid of in some of the things in this world and what's happening in this world and Satan but the things that I'm afraid of are afraid of God and God is on our side. 

Levi: yeah absolutely so there's a I'll kind of tie this all together and we'll work into some some application here and an analogy that I have that's a personal experience of mine uh I worked with uh uh YMCA for years and we had a silver sneaker program where uh elderly people would come and work out different times of the day there was a gentleman that would come three times a week he was early 90s when I first met him and I'd have passing conversation with them very nice guy and you know I had a relatively good relationship with them working there but didn't know a lot about the guy just oh that's a nice guy come and go Memorial Day came by one year saw him in the parade turned out he was a World War II veteran there was a level of oh wow the respect I had for him kind of grew and then I started having conversations with him and getting to know him more about that aspect of him and just who he was and what he was and it's a loose analogy but my respect and my awe of who this man is and what he's done grew in the relationship grew and I think that that's an aspect of yeah how you learn reverence how you learn the proper fear of the Lord is you got to learn you got to get in the word you got to study it and that's that's how I actually why it became a big thing to me was actually what Solomon was a I remember my mom or someone was reading me the story of Solomon and him being the wise man and uh and talking about that not in my mind I'm thinking wisdom is important I need I want to try to achieve as much wisdom as I can Lord how do I do that and came to the Proverbs talking about fear of the Lord as the beginning of that like that process and okay well now let's step back and learn that aspect say I think that the the practicality is obviously to learn fear the lord you've got to study and understand the characteristics and how do you do that you get in your word any other feedback on that other practical steps? 

Pastor Tony: good yeah getting the word is this the part where you put look at the camera and say get in the word get in the word okay well we covered it both. 

Levi: all right unfortunately I think that's all the time we have today thank you for your time Tony it's been a great conversation I love the topic look forward to digging in more hopefully we can do one on love real soon. 

Pastor Tony: yeah let's do that. 

Levi: yeah guys if you are interested in any more content from us you can check us out at messiahbible.org we live stream Wednesdays and Sundays you can also stay tuned for more Theology and action