Should Christians Celebrate Christmas: Theology in Action

Tony Caffey: welcome back to theology in action my name is Tony Caffey the senior pastor of verse by verse Fellowship in San Antonio Texas and I'm here with my good friend Kyle mounts how you doing we're going to talk about a subject that you and I have been here for almost a year now we have some spirited conversations from time to time on theology on practice and uh you're you're an astute person not just in terms of theology but also living things out in a practical way as Christians and you've talked with me about different subject matters but the the one we want to tackle today is important this time of year Christmas what do we do with Christmas it's what do we do with Christmas do we do we Chuck it you know because it's got these kind of weird components to it commercialism runs rampant kids are way too obsessed about their presence now your kids but kids yeah they might be I don't know you know you're good you got some people who Maybe over spiritualize Christmas uh as like a time of year where this is now our time to be spiritually minded and the the history of Christmas is convoluted and there's different views on what it is so I'm gonna start with you Kyle just to ask a big question and you just tackle it is is it a pagan holiday Christian or Christmas what do you think?

Kyle Mounts: yeah I mean that that's how that was my stance for the longest time um and it wasn't until maybe a couple of years ago that I started hearing people kind of talk about what the actual uh historical documentation or evidence for how tied are these things you know something like a little Invictus or saturnalia or you know you'll hear people all the time say that um what is it like Dionysus or um uh Horus in in uh you know uh ancient Egypt and stuff they'll say some of those specifics but I do know December 25th was this holiday that originated uh not maybe not originated but it was part of the Roman Empire and there was a pagan celebration at that time Constantine shows up the Roman Empire gets christianized all of a sudden December 25th becomes Jesus's birth right and that's and that's the most common narrative that's probably the one that most people will reach to so we'll tackle that one okay so um Constantine what was that like maybe the mid-30s mid 300s yeah that holiday is called Soul Invictus which is the um the birth of the victory of the sun essentially and uh originally it wasn't as far as we could tell we don't have any documentation that it was always celebrated on December 25th and this is something actually like because I didn't grow up in a Catholic um or or even like a high Church tradition so I didn't even know this but March 25th is apparently like a really celebrated time and uh especially in Catholicism it's the um what do they call it do you know what I'm saying today yeah yeah um and I got this information if you're interested I can you know we could share a link off of uh standareason.com okay and uh so they they celebrate that as the conception of Jesus okay and so um so you have that documentation that's that date's about you know Midway through the you know like 200 or 200s up to the 300 so it's a little bit before this uh documentation of saturnalia and all that other stuff

Tony Caffey: So there's a chance you're saying that the Christians celebrated December 25th as Christmas before?

Kyle Mounts: yeah and the Roman Empire specifically we know uh documentation says that uh the donatists I think they were they were like a heretical group in Catholicism uh that they did celebrate the birth of Christ now we don't have the date that they celebrated on that they celebrated the birth of Jesus and um and so the evidence then goes to this letter plus one that um uh Augustine wrote where he then links the uh the not the birth of Christ but the conception of Jesus which he claims in this letter which is I think his uh treat us on the the Trinity but he he references this fact that Jesus was born on March 25th okay sorry Jesus was conceived the day he died which was March 25th uh apparently I tried looking this up to see like more details but all I know is that he did he does make this claim and then he says and he was born if you roll that up nine months you go to December 25th

Tony Caffey: so and that's about the affirm that Augustine and that yes December 25th

Kyle Mounts: yeah and that's about again you know Midway through the fourth Century so around the same time that you have this um you know celebration of Jesus birth on December 25th

Tony Caffey: so boy that sounds shaky so I'm just saying like he's Augustine's your boy right like I mean you you like him but Augustine didn't know Hebrew and whatever he does like Old Testament stuff

Kyle Mounts: sure and I'm not I'm not saying he's accurate I'm saying it was a commonly held belief is that you have uh these documents saying that people thought he was born or that he was conceived the day he died which they say is March 25th and we have documentation saying that even today Catholics celebrate March 25th as the day Jesus was conceived so it's not that stretch to say they're not idiots right you know roll that up nine months in your at December 25th so you know it's if if it was at that point and we know that the domicist did celebrate it it's at least conceivable to say that that transpired before so it's not I wouldn't necessarily say there's a clear cut that's what I mean is to say that the documentation that we have from history doesn't clearly support the fact that oh yeah the Christians just ripped that off so that they can then celebrate a debater's holiday for their Lord Jesus it's not quite as clear-cut

Tony Caffey: all right counsel me now so I'm your pastor but you do some counseling for me because I I have a little bit of Puritans strain in me and the Puritans came to America the pilgrims and they hated Christmas because Christmas had become uh like you said not just commercialized but a time of kind of evil spread and almost like a modern day you know Mardi Gras kind of feel right which is incredibly ironic because we celebrate Thanksgiving now because of them and they hated Christmas but anyways um so I have a little bit of that in me like Christmas you know that I can Bah Humbug Christmas a little bit sure but uh and as I've aged I've been like okay well but the culture's talking about it we're singing These amazing songs like Hark the Herald Angels Sing and God Rest You Merry Gentlemen songs that I've loved that I've sung since I was a kid so so I have a kind of a love-hate relationship with Christmas I like it because we can capture the cultural momentum to do something that's Christ focused and uh you know Uncle Jimbo who wouldn't go to church normally might come to Christmas service and maybe that's the moment that the Lord uses to really capture his heart so I'm I'm for that but at the same time you know I I I buy some of these Pagan roots and I see even if there's those Pagan Roots maybe you're saying there's it's not strong as it could be there has been paganism associated with Christian with with Christmas over the years and even in our modern day context there's the commercialism is out of control the uh the the way in which people may be over emphasize this time of year Christ and underemphasized that the other 11 months frustrates me as a pastor so counsel me through that what's uh what's good about Christmas what's Redemptive about it that we can use in our day and then maybe what are some things that we should set aside?

Kyle Mounts: so first I would just like to say I'm maybe the uh maybe maybe we have agreement maybe we have some disagreement here uh in my family we look for any reason to celebrate something so like you know we we pay off a debt and we're like everyone let's have everyone over and let's celebrate you know it's like something as silly as that so um you know having Christmas is just another reason to be you know like what you were saying yes we celebrate and we worship Christ every day but this is just like you know another reason right so Jesus was you know hey maybe he was born this day maybe he wasn't but either way let's celebrate he was definitely born

Kyle Mounts: yeah and and this is the day we chose to celebrate the fact that he was born right so so it's more specific than just worshiping the lord it's worshiping the fact that he was born right and so there's there's just um and I would actually agree that in the Christian context you know Easter would be more significant because of his death and Resurrection than even his birth but

Tony Caffey: right only two gospels mentioned the birth at all yeah and one of them it's just kind of been passing reference

Kyle Mounts: yeah but you know that you mentioned that um you know it almost begs the question of like should we celebrate the birth of Jesus and actually Augustine uh in in a similar you know letter wrote that only pagans uh celebrate uh birthdays basically something along those lines he talked he kind of bah humbug celebrating even birthdays and so that kind of leads people to believe well should we celebrate Jesus birth like this seems strange but but in those two documented uh in the Bible those documents of uh his birth you have this sort of

Tony Caffey: Matthew and Luke to be clear Matthew and Luke

Kyle Mounts: yes and you have this sort of celebratory nature to it right the uh the angels will show up the Angels show up and they they drag these guys from the the field saying hey come worship the king you have uh these guys who traveled from the East uh because they saw a star and they're like we want to come worship the the king of the Jews you know so it's like you have this element of celebration of this event so we should celebrate it I I think that there's at least a strong argument to it uh you also have you know things like you know but it's not biblical biblically mandated okay well Jesus celebrated Hanukkah um you know it wasn't called Hanukkah in the Bible but I mean they he celebrated that that's not strictly speaking called for in the scripture but he did that you know that was something he was like Yeah I'm I'll go up to Jerusalem we'll celebrate um this event um and I absolutely agree with you I think that um the commercialism today is is outrageous you know the fact that I I have to constantly be reminding my kids my kids are

Tony Caffey: it's not in Super Bowl though I mean you can still yeah walk your kids through the importance of Christmas and and Tamp down that craziness right I don't think it's like an impossible thing to do

Kyle Mounts: yeah we don't we don't sell like we don't tell our kids about Santa although I don't begrudge people who do you know it's like I I that's just not what my wife and I wanted to do so we just didn't do that but um but yeah we focus on on what it's about and um and yeah that just like what you're saying gives you a reason to talk about it to your you know loved ones that maybe not uh believing or maybe estranged from church and you're like hey what why don't you come to church with me um so yeah I I know that there is a history where it became it sort of like gained this debaterous reputation and I would just say that uh it's similar to when the Apostle Paul right was talking about um eating meat sacrifice to Idols

Tony Caffey: good

Kyle Mounts: and you have this idea where um you know if if you're if your particip if you're participating knowingly in something that you're like that kind of like you would say Pricks my conscience I I feel bad about that there's nothing wrong with you saying I'm I'm gonna abstain you know I'm not going to do this but if you're celebrating because you know with a with a clean conscience before the Lord saying I I'm just wanting to Worship the Lord Jesus and this is a good reason to Worship the Lord Jesus I'm going to do that and so um you know you're not eating meat sacrifice to Idols because you brought a Christmas tree into your house you know you're just you're you're looking for a reason to celebrate and this is just a fun way to celebrate the Lord Jesus

Tony Caffey: yeah good I I we probably do have more common ground than we're we're even intimating here with this conversation you're breaking my heart with Augustine it I found out something interesting today about Martin Luther as well Luther didn't like Christmas and some of the the stuff associated with Saint Nick and the the oh yeah Saint and all that so he came up with this this new holiday in German it was the equivalent of Kris Kringle and we celebrate you know Christ as a child and now we call Santa Claus Christmas

Kyle Mounts: yeah I literally saw the same thing today because I was just I was I was inundating myself with all this stuff I'm like I'm gonna I'm gonna talk to Tony about this so yes you're absolutely right Martin Luther hated this like he thought that not Christmas per se but like but Santa Claus being uh kind of like outshadowing the reason for the season which is Jesus right um so yeah he he in German the the the term is um uh Chris

Tony Caffey: Chris Kringle term?

Kyle Mounts: yeah it's yeah it's uh hinder something Christ Kinder Christ Kinder Kinder means child in German so Christ Kinder and then over time the Dutch started like just butchering that and then like so then they start that was another name for Santa Claus was Kris Kringle um and Martin Luther is rolling over in his grave which you probably would be doing with every time we baptize it because he's a Believer here at verse by verse absolutely so so yeah there there's a definitely a mixed history with this and you know ultimately I think it's it's one of those things where um you see this with not just Traditions like this you see this with other things we do in the church where the world tries to grab on to something like that and secularize it or

Tony Caffey: sure

Kyle Mounts: you know because in general um I think people do want the elements of what we have as Christians Brotherhood and you know the community of saints uh that you know everyone loves that you know the statement God is love right everyone loves those things there are elements in Christianity that people just kind of go yeah we want that but they don't want the actual substance of it which is Christ um and they even have now like atheist churches that meet

Tony Caffey: right yeah I remember Tommy Nelson making fun of him saying like they're singing God you're not my God you know like they're worship songs like what do they sing do they sing Bob Dylan or what you know I don't know uh but there's this desire for some kind of well we would say like the human heart was made to worship they're going to worship something there's there's just this craving to even if it's your own ideology right you're going to worship that so yeah and I like capturing that that kind of human intuition for something meaningful instead in terms of drawing them to Christ and so Christmas is helpful in that regard for me as a pastor best part of Christmas I'll tell you for me is the songs

Kyle Mounts: yeah that was actually one of the things I was going to ask you because I know that you I'm a I'm a singy songy person

Tony Caffey: you are

Kyle Mounts: I like to sing stuff sometimes I walk around here in the office and sing and um the the combination of great lyrical content with music that's not only is like strong and and and good and feeds my soul it brings back these these uh reminiscences of my childhood you know so and it's seasonal and there's something to the seasonality they Old Testament even had this in terms of you have the three feasts throughout the the Hebrew calendar you would have first fruits and you would and it was usually designed around the agricultural calendar but the seasonality of things is powerful and so we get to Christmas time it's this season of singing these songs that I've been singing since a kid they're christological a lot of them they're reminding me of of the truth that I hold to so strongly and yet they're also like artistic and Musical and Powerful I love it that's the best part of Christmas so we'll I guess we can end on this

Tony Caffey: yeah favorite Christmas hymn and why and I'll I'll give you mine well I've already said mine but you haven't told the audience so you gotta you gotta tell them I love Hark the Herald Angels Sing not only because of the theological Concepts that are in it the Incarnation and the intersection of Jesus humanity and Jesus it's incredible it's Sublime but I also love and this is what we've talked a little bit about this I love the history of that Carol because if you go and you study it um Charles Wesley wrote it but he didn't write it as Hark the Herald Angels saying he he wrote it some crazy things this welcome comes or something

Kyle Mounts: Yeah

Tony Caffey: Yeah uh I can't remember the exact title and it was it means almost the same thing welcome is like uh I forgot I I I know a little bit it does but he didn't think that Angels Sing so George Whitefield came along and took the hymn and basically bastardized it by adding this statement about angel singing and it infuriated Charles Wesley because he didn't see angels singing he didn't think they sing because strictly speaking the passage in they exclaim they don't sing

Kyle Mounts: Yeah

Tony Caffey: so and they had their own issues anyway George Whitfield and the wesleys so uh Wesley John Wesley and Charles Wesley both never sang that song again the song that they wrote George Whitfield took it and it's become like this incredibly famous hymn that everybody attributes to Charles Wesley he wouldn't sing it again because Whitfield had changed it and added this component that he didn't like still with that and I love George Whitfield too I love the the Theology of that song Still resonates and it has survived whether Angels sing or not the truth of it is is basically you know Luke 2 Matthew 1 the Incarnation the glory of what transpired as Jesus came into our world what what what's not to love about that as a pastor

Kyle Mounts: absolutely yeah I agree I that that's one that um if you don't don't even sing it just like just listen to the lyrics and let that kind of penetrate your heart you you had mentioned the other day about uh or a few weeks ago about you know you should always be preaching the gospel to yourself well that that song definitely does that it's you know you could just sing that song all the time in your head and then it's you know that's the gospel permeating your heart

Tony Caffey: second favorite O come O come Emmanuel okay I love the minor key feel to that and it's one of the only Christmas carols that has kind of a dirge feel to it still it's it's a sad song and the way that it's sung but it it's it's uh exemplifying something beautiful yeah so what about you?

Kyle Mounts: uh yeah so we talked about this not too long ago and you'll have to actually elaborate on something for me because I'm I'm curious but uh my my number one favorite is um Oh Holy Night yeah I I for for a similar reason for why you like Hark the Herald and uh and um uh oh come on Come Emmanuel it has this it has I think really solid theological points um but there's that part where it like shifts from this like you know almost like wispy ethereal we're not going anywhere to this minor chord and it's like Fall on Your Knees right and it's just like every time we get to that part I feel it in my spirit I'm just like oh yeah I just want to Worship the Lord you know and I I so that's that would be why I I really appreciate Oh Holy Night I know you had mentioned something about the author I don't I don't know anything about him

Tony Caffey: yeah written in French initially I do know that the second verse if you've ever listened to the second verse it's basically the social gospel because the slave is our brother

Kyle Mounts: yeah well that's not bad but it's well and I know that um they were uh the the authors were abolitionists

Tony Caffey: yeah so that was very much on their mind when they wrote it um and I don't necessarily fault them for that in by Lehman right?

Kyle Mounts: yeah Paul basically urging uh this guy onesimus uh to uh free the slope yeah to free this like treat him as your brother right um so like I would say that there is even biblical reasons to suggest that um and and I agree like I think I think we may even be more sensitive to stuff like that in this day and age where there is more of a uh Even in our churches right there's more of a push to that social gospel and not the gospel and so I can I can definitely feel that I can be a little touchy with that

Tony Caffey: yeah and I I feel that for sure that's my wife's favorite one she's she sings it wonderfully and full-throatedly

Kyle Mounts: yeah

Tony Caffey: uh she and that's a good song

Kyle Mounts: yeah totally so good

Tony Caffey: well Merry Christmas to all of you thanks for listening in and uh yeah get to church this Christmas time it's a good time to celebrate Worship the Lord sing some good songs and remember what Christ has done for us the Incarnation coming into our world and then also Good Friday Easter dying on the cross for our sins see you next time on theology in action thank you