Discussing Women in Ministry: Theology in Action

Tony Caffey: Foreign welcome back to Theology in Action. My name is Tony Caffey and I'm the senior pastor of Verse By Verse Fellowship in San Antonio, Texas, and I'm joined by my special guest today, Kathy Hubbard. Kathy is the executive assistant of Arnold Fruchtenbaum at Ariel Ministry here in San Antonio. Also, Kathy, you are married to your husband Jeff, one husband, one husband, and you have two kids. Who, where do your kids live? Are they, they're in Indiana, right? Kathy Hubbard: I have one that lives in heaven and I have one that does live in Indiana. Tony Caffey: Okay, what, and what are your kids' names? Kathy Hubbard: Oscar and Elle. Her name is Elizabeth but goes by L. So the, the older she got, the shorter her name got. Tony Caffey: Okay, what's her full name? Kathy Hubbard: Elizabeth. Tony Caffey: Elizabeth. Okay, and then, and how long have you and your husband been married? Kathy Hubbard: We've been married for 27 years. Tony Caffey: 27 years. Okay, praise the Lord. Well, we're here to talk about an important subject, a, uh, in some circles, a difficult subject, but something important that we need to think through as Christians. Um, and that's the role of women in church ministry, teaching, leadership. And you're an important person to speak to this issue because you, you have a gift of leadership, a gift of teaching. Is that fair to say, those two gifts, and you've used them for the benefit of our church here at Verse By Verse. But let me, um, let me start with this. So Kathy, um, how did you come to Christ? What was your own journey? And then maybe how, as you explored how the Lord gifted you, did you come to a place where you understood, you know, I, I have this gift that needs to be used in the church to edify the body? Kathy Hubbard: Yes, so at age six, I can remember it very vividly. My mom had a, um, Precious Moments plaque on my wall that had Matthew 7:7, "Ask, seek, and knock. Ask and it will be given to you. Seek and you shall find. Knock and the door will be open to you." And I can remember as a child just repeating that over and over again every night when I would go to bed, I would see that verse. And, um, I didn't know it was a verse at that time, it was just words on a plaque, but they, those words just penetrated my heart. And our family did not, I was not raised in a Christian home. I would say my father did not come to faith until age 63. My mom was a believer in the Lord but was in a generation of those are not necessarily things that you think about or talk, well, not necessarily think about, but talk about. And, um, just in that family setting, knowing that my father was not a believer, so she would have the Bible sitting out. There were different ways that she, you know, tried to show her faith without in a verbal conviction. But it was when I was probably, I don't know, maybe 10, the Southern Baptist ministry had a bus Ministry that went through neighborhoods and this was in the early 80s. And I, yeah, I got picked up by the bus. And I remember I would ask them, what is the snack for today? And if it wasn't something I liked, I didn't go. And but if it was something I liked, then I went. But there was a time that we were on the bus where, you know, dropping kids off at their houses and they are singing Father Abraham. And I remember like going in my mind, I'm thinking of President O and they're, think they're talking about, you know, they had all these kids. And I'm like, how many kids did he have? And the leaders all laughed at me and said, you have no idea. Like, you don't know anything about the word, you don't know anything about this, you don't know anything about that. And I was like, you're right, I don't. So tell me. And but they were very, um, I don't know if I would use the word threatened, but I guess they didn't, they didn't like that I was saying, you're right, tell me, like, or at least speaking back to that. So that was the last of my bus Ministry. And then went to church a little bit here or there, but it wasn't until I was 15 when my aunt and uncle who live in Colorado invited me out to participate in a youth ministry camp. And my, the reason or the goal to get me out there was they have a horse ranch in Colorado. And so they needed to have additional people come out to help with the horses, to assist with them so that the youth can ride and, you know, go up and down the Rocky Mountains and have all this grand time. It was going to be an activity. And so I loved the horses. I would go out there and took care of them. What I was staying with, with my aunt and uncle, which was not very often, but I did enjoy it. He knew that, and the Lord knew that I needed to hear the Gospel in its clarity. And so I was putting the horses away in the stable that we had, um, and I came into the very last message. And it was the offer of the Gospel. And I can remember the Lord just penetrating my heart with the Gospel and understanding that, you know, yes, I am a sinner and I need us, I need a savior. Tony Caffey: So you knew that intrinsically or was that maybe a holdover from what you learned? Kathy Hubbard: I think it's, I think it was right, just, you know, along through the years and, and then it just, in that moment, I, I knew. And so I leaned to my cousin and I said, go with me. Because of course, you know, it was go forward. You had to go forward to receive the Lord. And I didn't want to go like by myself. I just entered this room. I didn't know any of these people. And she was like, I'm already saved. I don't need to go. I'm like, well, thanks a lot, Cuz. So, um, so I got up and I ran to the front. Not because I, were there other people going? There were. Tony Caffey: Okay, there were other people going, but it was, um, Kathy Hubbard: Just I was so compelled. I just ran, gave my life to Christ, knew that I was no longer going to go to hell, but apart from that, I, you know, the discipleship side of things, the reading of the word, the submission to the Spirit, all of those parts that come as you grow in your faith, didn't come for about seven years later until I was married, had our first child, and started really going to church. And then dusting off the, the color, the cover of the page isn't going, my life should look different than the world. Tony Caffey: Okay, so saved at age 15, didn't grow up in a Christian home. Now at 22, married, you're starting to think, okay, this is, this needs to be real in my life. Is that fair to say? Kathy Hubbard: Absolutely. And, and it actually happened at a, um, high school friends of ours, we all got together, got together, went and seen each other for a while. We're at this restaurant and, you know, everyone's drinking beer and we were drinking too. We weren't drunk, it wasn't, you know, anything that we were, we were not being disobedient to the word. Um, however, there was a friend of mine that, and we were sharing Christ, you know, we were sharing our faith and, um, and he just said, if you don't look any different, why would I want to be a Christian? Tony Caffey: Oh, wow. So an unbeliever said this. Kathy Hubbard: Yeah. Wow, yeah. And I was like, huh, so it really got me thinking about my life should look different. And although I knew that it was okay as long as I wasn't becoming drunk to drink, it was a problem for him and so therefore I became a stumbling block and, um, didn't want that to be. And so that's really, it was that question that drove me to the word. How should my life look different? Tony Caffey: So age 22, now you're starting to explore this. Somewhere along the road, you're, you sense like, okay, I'm, I'm equipped by the Holy Spirit to teach. When did that happen? Kathy Hubbard: Age 24. Tony Caffey: 20, so two years later. Two years, pretty early on in your kind of maturation process. Kathy Hubbard: Yes. Um, however, I can say that my, my mom babysat neighborhood kids and we would hold church services. Tony Caffey: Oh, okay. Kathy Hubbard: None of us were saved, but we would, I would read the Bible to them. You know, I mean, I was always in the word. Of course, I didn't know necessarily what I was doing. I was reading scripture over people but not expounding on it in any way. But at age 24, I started an org with an organization called Bible Study Fellowship. Yeah. And, yes. So with BSF, it, and I started off as a children's leader. And children's leaders and they teach children. And so that was where the, the gift was really revealed. The I can remember at our church, but it was still fairly new. Our church was hosting a VBS. And they said, we'd really like for you to come and be a part of this. And I said, absolutely not. I don't like kids. I don't want to be around kids. I like my own kids and that's it. And so the lady very graciously said, well, why don't you pray about it? I said, I don't need to pray about it. My answer is no. And she said, well, if you don't say yes, then we can't hold VBS. And I said, well, if I don't say, if that's your thing and you're clinging on one person, then you need to go back to the Lord and pray. It's a better leadership. So, so I spent the next week, next prayer and said yes to be a part of the, the and really it was from there that I then began teaching in Bible Study Fellowship as underneath the Children's Ministry and then moved on to teaching adults as well. But then in the local church, was a part of our grade school ministry and middle school ministry for 20 years. So that's helpful because you've, that's your background, got saved, got this gift. And yet we have scriptures that talk about the, the differing roles that men and women have within the church. Tony Caffey: So we're, so Verse By Verse Fellowship, full disclosure, we're a complementarian church. And that means, I'll just give the definition from Lincoln Duncan, and this is, uh, the Biblical Council for Manhood and Womanhood: "God has created men and women equal in their essential dignity, both made in the image of God and human personhood, but different and complementary in function with male headship in the home and in the church." So that's that complementary language is the nature of complementarianism. Uh, yeah, how would you define this term, um, Kathy, and, and why are you complementarian? Kathy Hubbard: Okay, so it took me a while to get there. And I can just say that I was in a, um, well, one because of the gift of teaching, the gift of leadership, the boldness of personality, um, I was very much penned as someone who would want to exercise authority over people. That is not necessarily what I want to do. I will though, if people don't step up and people aren't leading, I will lead. Tony Caffey: You're wired that. Kathy Hubbard: I'm wired to do that. Um, however, that's not necessarily my first instinct, but if I see that things are not, people are not leading, or whatever, then I, I can tend to step into that. So, through the years, growing up, growing up, meaning growing up in my faith, not in my growing up years, um, I came across many men who essentially, if I, if I could put it all down without sharing all the stories, essentially would come down to this one point: that if you had been born a man, God really could have used you in great ways. Tony Caffey: Oh, wow. Kathy Hubbard: And they touted themselves as complementarianism. And so I was like, well, one, I don't know what that word means, so I need to look that up. That's not my everyday language. Um, so then you get in, you know, you start looking, and then you see the complementarianism versus the egalitarianism. And I'm like, yeah, I like the egalitarianism. And this is maybe early nineties. And so I'm like, I like that. And that, that was kind of raging at that time, too. It just, and theological. Tony Caffey: Sure. Kathy Hubbard: So I, I wanted so desperately for that to be true, because it gave me freedom to teach, it gave me freedom to use the gifts that I have. I never wanted to be a pastor. I never wanted to be an overseer of a church, you know, that was never my ambition. But I did want to be able to use the gift that the Lord had given. And I was able to do it within, you know, teaching within youth ministry and in women's ministry, praise the Lord. But with that thought of, man, if you had just been born a man, you really could have done great things for the Lord. There's so much, there's so much wrong with that stuff, but go ahead. So, so then, you know, kind of navigating that egalitarianism, so that wasn't the reason we left this particular church, but it was definitely like, it was hard for my husband and I to swallow. That is not something that he or I have ever believed to be true. We both believe that God has us wired differently. We, he has headship over us, you know, over our family. We've always believed that. We've always believed that we have different roles and they are to complement each other. That, but, and it's not a less than. We're both equally made in the, in the image of God. And so for those words to be said, it was, you know, and I, I can say that I've probably slayed some soldiers, some male soldiers along the way with some words of just, I won't go there with you, I can do that off camera, but, um, anyway, so that was, it could make a situation very uncomfortable. Let's just say that. Um, so then in a church setting where the egalitarian was rampant, um, fitting great, was able to use my teaching, was able to use my leadership. But the scripture was so taken out of context that I, we couldn't stay. It was like, man, I really want that to be right. I really like the sound of that. But it wasn't right. It wasn't keeping scripture within context. It wasn't looking at what God had put in place, how he ordained the order. And you saw the chaos of that, that when things... Tony Caffey: Church context. Kathy Hubbard: Yeah, within the church, within the homes, within the, just the, the ministry, the leadership style and the, uh, it just, it wasn't good. It was not good. So it was at that point that I realized, and this is not that long ago, not that long ago, if you and I sat down two years ago, I would have had a hard time really articulating how the Lord got me to the place where I am today. But over the last two years, the Lord has really solidified just in my heart and mind, because I am so bent on making sure that the word of God is not misaligned or misapplied or taken out of context in any way that in order to say that I have to place myself in complementarianism. Tony Caffey: Yeah, what, what are some specific scriptures, I think, that would be helpful maybe for people watching, where we see God's expectation? Let's start with the home. So, you know, I've done a fair amount of pre-marital counseling as a pastor, and one of the things that I try to impart to the men especially is, you know, you're called to lead this family, your wife. Um, women, um, for the most part, I think I, I know there's maybe some differences of opinion on this, but they, they want and desire a husband to lead effectively and with, with holiness and service and with, wow, is that hard to do? Be like Christ. No, no small task, die to yourself as Christ did for the church. Kathy Hubbard: Okay. Yeah, that's a lifelong pursuit. Tony Caffey: It is. Kathy Hubbard: And that's really where the Lord, um, allowed Jeff and I to be settled in our roles, is, you know, he would say to me, I've got a difficult challenge ahead of me too. It's not that I am because I'm male. I have somehow superseded all things and that I know all things and that I can do all things. I just like, you know, you as a female, you know it. And it's, and I can say that there was this rub for sure that, you know, as we're going through this and trying to understand what does that look like in the context of our marriage. And but I can tell you that when he does lead, we love it. And when he doesn't lead, the whole family, yeah, yeah. And when he doesn't lead, we suffer. And you see that in the, you know, we, we will talk about this and he would be very happy to come on and say, yeah, there's been some times that I was not leading well and our family suffered for it. Um, and he has spoken with many pastors about that, that just the importance of the male role in the family and in the home. It doesn't mean that it has to be that, you know, I'm better in finances usually and so I do the finances, whereas that would say, oh, this is a male dominated role. Men are the only ones that are allowed to, to take care of the checkbook. Our family would have been in total chaos if that would have been the case if we were like, okay, this is, you know, these man-made rules versus God ordained roles. I think can get a little, can just make things very confusing. Tony Caffey: Yeah, I agree. And and that I'll share my own story. So when Sunny and I got married, I was barely out of college, barely had a job. Sonia had finished her, uh, undergraduate degree, had a master's degree, was working on her CPA, was gainfully employed for several years. You know, most of the world would look at our marriage relationship and say, you know, he should probably submit to her. The best way for them moving forward. And yet there was something in me that God had created that was equipped to lead. And there was something in her that desired a husband that would lead. And so I mean, that's one of the ways in which God's creative order and the way in which he's given us certain roles doesn't always go in the same pattern that the world might expect. Kathy Hubbard: Exactly. Tony Caffey: And, uh, and it served us well. And I, I appreciate what you said because hard and fast rules aren't great when you're trying to discern how to apply these, uh, principles in the Bible. And, um, you know, Sonya, she's better at finances than I. She was a CPA, right? So, um, and there's things that she does better. And, and, and we're a better couple because she's given the freedom to, to lead and to direct certain things that we do. So and yet doesn't have the authority over the home. Yeah, there is. And, and there's a way to, and I talk about this in premarital, where, you know, love is received too. I think that's different. Men, you know, one of the ways that we're wired is, is towards leadership and the respect of our wives. That's something that's highly valued by men even more so than maybe the verbal statements, I love you, is, you know, I trust you, you know, I'm, wherever you lead, I'm, I'm going. You know, those things mean more to me in terms of receiving love than sometimes, uh, other kinds of things that she appreciates more. So let's transition to the church. That's kind of the home dynamic where complementarianism would filter into the home. But and I would say passages of scripture if we're looking, you know, oh yeah, please put that around there. Um, is Ephesians 5. That is where I would, um, land a lot of the times, mostly, um, I would say starting off in verse one, actually. Kathy Hubbard: Oh, okay. Tony Caffey: Where it says, "Therefore, be imitators of God as beloved children and walk in love as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God." So if we can keep that in proper perspective, then as we go through the paragraphs and we go over seeing, you know, even up to 21, um, "submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ." We see this "one another" there. And then when you can get into 22, "wives, submit to your own husbands as to the Lord." It helps you to see the better per, a better perspective and a bigger perspective that you are submitting unto the Lord and that we are doing this as an imitator of God. Kathy Hubbard: Yeah, what does that look like in the Trinity? Tony Caffey: Yeah, the submission is there. It is within the Trinity. The, the Son submitting to the Father. And in no way does that imply, uh, inequality, inequality or inferiority. If it did, the whole construct of the journey would fall apart. Kathy Hubbard: That's right. Yeah, that's right. Tony Caffey: So let's keep it in proper perspective. And, um, and so that has helped me through the years tie verses one and two over into the other, you know, the bigger picture. And it's, it's always better and we know that to keep it within the context of in the confines of scripture. Good, Kathy, I appreciate that. Um, good reminder for husbands and wives at home. Um, yeah, so how, so I mean, that's great. So we got the family dynamic, the husband loves the wife as Christ loves the church and the wife submits to the husband as Christ does to God the Father. So we each imitate Christ in those roles. So let's maybe transition to, uh, the church dynamic. You know, full disclosure, we have elders here at church. We're an elder-led church. We have, uh, six men that lead our church and that's derived from our complementarian conviction. So why is that the case? Why is that important for the church? Kathy Hubbard: Well, because scripture says it is. Because the Bible says. Next question. Let's move on. Tony Caffey: So if you, if you turn into your Bibles, if you are following along in scripture, if you turn to First Timothy chapter two, um, you can read it in its context, looking in verses 8 through 15. But specifically, verse 11 says, "Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness." So in the realm of that. And then also pairing that over with First Corinthians chapter 14, which in First Corinthians 14, it's talking about the order of worship and the order leading us of worship. And we talked a little bit earlier about if there is, when, when the order of the Lord that he has instilled and ordained is changed because of what man desires, there's chaos. And so in thinking about this and thinking about First Corinthians chapter 14 and just the potential chaos that was going on in the Corinthian church, right? Could we be okay there? They were getting drunk at communion, right? So that's the big problem. Kind of understand that just a little bit. Um, so let me see if I can, let's see if I can find the verse that I want. Um, so verse starting in 33 says, "For God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints. The women should keep silent in the churches for they are not permitted to speak, but should also be in submission, as the law also says." And then there's another passage of scripture, I don't think I wrote it down. Um, but it was, it's talking about how a woman should not be in authority over, over a man, that they should not teach or exercise authority. Maybe that's in first, if, maybe I didn't read all of First Timothy passage there. Um, but that is pretty definitive, huh? Kathy Hubbard: It is. Even if I don't like it. I do like it. I didn't at a time though, because of just what had been, it's so counterfeit. Tony Caffey: Yeah, to our modern day sensibilities, right? Kathy Hubbard: Yeah. Tony Caffey: And then we, you know, first Timothy 3 as Paul tells Timothy to find elders, there's, you know, the husband of one wife statement. Similarly in Titus one, we have Jesus calling 12 men as his disciples, his apostles, sending them out. And so I mean, there's two sides to that. The authoritative leaders of the church, both the apostles and then the elders later were men. But women were so strategic in Jesus's ministry and the early church. Mary was incredibly strategic, not as strategic as some people think theologically, but I mean, she was in the upper room. She was right when women were there. Women were hearing the teaching. They were impacted by the Lord. In fact, and the Lord Jesus said, you know, she's going to be remembered for the, you know, forever because of what she has done. You have Aquila and Priscilla, oftentimes referred to as Priscilla and Aquila. Correct. Right. So Priscilla's first, who were super strategic in the planting of churches. So I guess where I'm going with this is so we, we both share a conviction in terms of the way in which the church and the home should be structured. But there's also a lot of biblical content that speaks about women teaching, women leading, women using their gifts for the edification of the church. There's Titus 2, which is incredibly important in terms of older women teaching younger women to to grow in the church. So let me ask that of you, Kathy, how, how have you been able to use your gift? And and we can do leadership and teaching both together or separately if you like. Kathy Hubbard: Sure, but how you know, maybe speaking to other women out there who feel equipped with those gifts too, what's the best way to use them for the edification of the church? Um, I would say the best way is one, to surrender through prayer, to study the scriptures, and then also to be submissive to the Spirit. And that is really where I then was able to recognize not only the gift that I had, but then also be able to use it in a God-glorifying and church-edifying way. So for a woman as a, with a gift of leadership and the gift of teaching, I found myself in youth ministry, children's ministry, where I was not asserting authority over men, but I was still able to impart the deep truths of the word of God to children. And anybody who says that a child cannot learn has never been in a classroom watching children learn about the Lord and has basically probably never read scripture either. Um, just throwing that out there, but... Tony Caffey: You're preaching the choir. I got saved when I was six. Okay, kids, so, yeah. Kathy Hubbard: Leadership piece. So I did have a leadership role, church, within Children's Ministry. Um, but my largest leadership role would be, would have been within Bible Study Fellowship. And so, which is a parachurch organization. And, um, and gave me the freedom to utilize both my gift of leadership and my gift of teaching in a non-threatening way because it, the class, the way the classes are set up is the men meet together and then the women meet together. Okay. So there was no chance of ever, you know, that intermingling, if you will, as far as having a woman teaching a man or exercising authority in leadership over them. But the Lord also allowed me to use my gift of leadership on boards. I served on several boards. And so that gave me an opportunity to, to be a part of that. And as an executive assistant, I have a lot of responsibilities that I can utilize both my gift of teaching and my gift of leadership in the directing of different, whether it's people within the organization or without the organization. Tony Caffey: Good, thanks Kathy. And I, I would affirm too, uh, you've taught here in our church on Tuesdays and have benefited, uh, the ladies within our church with your study. But we also have other strong women in our church and they're incredibly valuable. Uh, so Shea Mounts, who leads our children's ministry here, she's got gift of leadership, administration, I think two, maybe a few other gifts as well. And, um, you know, she, she, she's incredibly valuable to what we're doing here. We have other women as well who serve in valuable capacity, small group leaders. Um, we have a women's ministry that's quite active here. And and you can see, here's what I see as the pastor. So I'm, I'm kind of the guy out there watching everybody. And, you know, what's your gift? How are you using it? When I see women and men both using their gifts and edifying the church with their gifts and and being energized by that, that energizes me. Kathy Hubbard: Absolutely. And I wanna, I wanna mobilize that. Tony Caffey: You know, so as I've encountered women with those gifts, I want to see them use it, uh, in the church in a way that glorifies the Lord and even dialogue about, well, how could we do this in light of what we've already said before about the nature of, of, you know, elder leadership and there are certain roles that that they won't serve in within the local church. So... Kathy Hubbard: Right. And I think the approach of that done in a biblical manner and a gracious manner, it, it tears down the walls, you know, it's not a, I'm better than you and so there, because I'm male, then I'm better than you and God can use me. Rather than looking at, okay, we are, you know, in the body of Christ, you are equally created in the image of God and there are roles that will benefit the kingdom as you serve in them. Well, let me ask a question, this may be kind of taking us more in the controversial space, so, uh, this will be fun. Um, I would, and one of the things that we're dealing with today is, is what people call toxic masculinity. So, and there's, it's kind of a dual-edged sword because that's for real out there. But then there's also kind of the accusation of it that's thrust upon men by and large, which creates... Tony Caffey: I think passive men sometimes. But let me, let me frame my question this way. How would you respond to someone who says that complementarianism, this conviction that we have for the local church, demeans women or enables toxic masculinity? Kathy Hubbard: My first question would be, show me where that is in scripture. And, um, and kind of see if where, where we, if we have any biblical grounds that we can walk in into and alongside. And, and I'm not going to say that that person would not have any biblical grounds because they may have, you know, some, some scripture that they would like to walk through. And so we could certainly do that. As far as does it escalate that, um, I can, I've been in situations where I've seen that. And again, I would say anything that is outside of the order of what God has is wrong. And I, I've seen complementarianism done wrong. I have seen it wrong, done wrong. It's been done wrong within, you know, my own life. Tony Caffey: I think you're saying if it's done wrongly, it can, it can absolutely. Just like Elder, you might have a conviction about elder leadership. Elders can run amok and destroy a church. That doesn't mean necessarily that elder leadership itself is something in and of itself. Right. Kathy Hubbard: Exactly. And again, it, I think it has to be, we had to be led by the Spirit of God. We had to be led by the word of God. And when we step outside of that, then and we put our own man-made ideas and thoughts and kind of barriers up, then it stinks. Tony Caffey: Well, we will have women and men both who come to our church churches, let's just use the plural since, uh, outside even Verse By Verse Fellowship, who have had bad experiences. And, uh, men who maybe are sheepish about leadership, women who have experience, maybe authoritarianism in their homes or in their church. And we want to establish a corrective. I appreciate you going to scripture. You know, this is the paradigm. The paradigm for home life is husbands that lead, but their lead, their leading is a is a death to self kind of leadership. Should be true Antichrist eldership too. Elders, you know, um, Jesus modeled something for us when he's, you know, washing the disciples' feet as an active, uh, leadership. And so he was also led by the word of God. There wasn't anything that he did outside of the will of the Father. Yeah, and the sensitivity to that. Tony Caffey: I love one of the things I appreciate about Jesus reading him is his interaction with women. Have you ever, that would be a fascinating study to do. Just like Jesus his interaction with women. So here we have a single man, God in the flesh, right? And not all the women that he interacted with were single, but a lot of them were single. And, uh, he would, he would just treat them differently. He, you know, he would rebuke Peter, but he, he never spoke to a woman like he would some of the men. And there was a tenderness and when he would teach and thinking about, you know, Mary and Martha and that interaction he had with them and how he brought them to a place of understanding. Mary Magdalene. Some of those episodes are quite moving. Um, and so there's a pattern there even not in the way that we read scripture, not of thus says the Lord, thou shalt do this, but just watch the way Jesus interacted with women and men and led them in ways that are really honorable and sacrificial. So I think another thing to point out is just simply what the word complementarianism is, like what is the first part of that word is complement. And how do you define that? Kathy Hubbard: Yeah, complementary roles. Tony Caffey: God created men and women different, you know, big, big hot take here. Men and women are different, right? Um, and different in a good way, you know, and and this is important I think to point out in our world because there's a lot of confusion about what is a man and what is a woman and people don't want to get stuck in their their gender, gender identity. And and God created you and love is the way that he created you, man and woman in His image, both. So there's a commonality there, but there's differences that can be celebrated. You know, I can't, I can't give birth to a child. You know, there's things that I can't do as a man that God has has bestowed that honor on a woman. And and that's good. It is. So maybe a few clarifying comments would be helpful when we talk about submission in the home, we should make clear that that doesn't mean that a woman in church submits to every other man at the church. Kathy Hubbard: Correct. So that's... Tony Caffey: I think a confusion that sometimes is thrust upon, uh, women in the church. Um, they are to submit to their elders as the leader of the church, but so are their husbands. I mean, that's, that's not like something unique to women. Um, Kathy Hubbard: Right. And the scripture specifically says, submit to your husband. Yes. Right. So that's the leader of your home. But let's talk. So you worked in para church ministries and you're working in one now. And so, um, how does that apply there? Because we have, uh, senators. We have congresswomen in our country that serve in that capacity. So, um, yeah, how does, does the complementarianism of the church transition into that world or how is that different? Kathy Hubbard: So from my perspective, it's different. And the reason for that is because what I see within scripture is that it's in the confines of the church and of the home. And it doesn't mean that I can't exercise leadership outside of that arena. So that's, that's my conviction and where I land there. Tony Caffey: I think that's right. And I appreciate what you said about serving on a board like that could be helpful in in the para church world. Um, and you know, if you run for Senator someday, I'll vote for you, Kathy. So, uh... Kathy Hubbard: I don't think I will, but thank you. I appreciate the vote. Tony Caffey: Yeah, I, I think that's important to clarify too, so that we don't try to thrust the expectations of the church and what God has here on for the world at large. Kathy Hubbard: Exactly. And that is not again, that is taking scripture out of context. And it's really, um, while expanding the borders a little too far from what, from what here it's for, it's for the, the body of Christ. It's for the church itself. It's for the home of a Christian believing, a believer in. Apart from that, leave the scripture where the scripture is. Tony Caffey: Good, Kathy. Any final words? What would you say maybe to a, uh, Kathy Hubbard-like young lady age 22, who's starting to feel, you know, spiritual gifts emerging of leadership, teaching? How would you exhort that young lady? Kathy Hubbard: I would encourage her to find a woman to mentor her in that. And Titus 2, right? That's exactly right. Titus 2:2. And then again, something that I said earlier that the Lord really used for me is just surrendering to the Lord in prayer, studying the scriptures, what his scriptures have to say about that within the role and within the confines. And if I exercise this gift that the Lord has given to me, which we should be doing in order to edify the body, am I doing it in a way that is going to bring glory to God? And if I'm doing it outside of the way that the Lord has put together in scripture for the role of the woman, then that, it does not bring glory to God. That brings chaos and it brings misunderstanding. And so I, I would say, you know, really submerge yourself in the word and then make sure that you are being submissive to the Spirit. And as you are doing those three things, as you're praying, as you're studying, and as you're submitting to the Spirit of God, then you will find your place where God has for you to be able to serve and edify the, the body of the Messiah, but then also exercise your gifts in the confines of what brings glory to God. Tony Caffey: Yeah, good. Good word. Thanks, Kathy. Kathy Hubbard: You're welcome. Tony Caffey: Well, that's been Theology in Action. Thanks for joining us. If you want to watch another video on this topic, there was a Theology in Action with my wife, Sonya Caffey, where we talked more about the marriage relationship and how complementarianism works in, in that relationship. Stay tuned for more episodes like this with Theology in Action, and you can listen to episodes like this as well as full expository sermons at vbvf.org.