A Deep Discussion on Marriage: Theology in Action

Tony Caffey: Foreign welcome back to theology in action my name is Tony Caffey and I'm the pastor of verse by verse Fellowship. I'm really excited today because I have as my guest for this podcast my wife Sanja

Sanja Caffey: Hey Sanja hello

Tony Caffey: Glad you're here. We're here to talk about an import an important subject. The subject we know a thing or two about

Sanja Caffey: Yeah we're here to talk about marriage

Tony Caffey: Yes yes And we've been married 22 years and we met what was the date that we met do you remember?

Sanja Caffey: Met February 2nd year 2000

Tony Caffey: That's right I came to your house pretending to be a Jehovah's Witness

Sanja Caffey: Yes you did

Tony Caffey: I was the worst Jehovah's Witness in the world

Sanja Caffey: Yes

Tony Caffey: And that was all because of a dare that we had a mutual friend who was wanting us to meet and then we got married 11 months later which is is that fast? I don't know didn't seem fast when you know you know you just gotta pull the trigger yeah. We dated probably three or four months and then we knew and then we started to think about what life would be like together but um yeah I remember so when we met let's just go back to that uh time in our life. It's been a little while but you had been single or had not dated really anybody for a while

Sanja Caffey: For about 10 years yeah. And so you were 26. You had been single I guess and not dating for a while. Why did you initially make that decision?

Sanja Caffey: Well because I wanted the Lord to be in charge of that for me. You know I just saw a lot of people have a lot of problems because of dating around a lot and making a lot of mistakes. I've made some mistakes myself and I just saw the emptiness of that and once I came to know the Lord I decided that he's better at it than I am so I should just let him entrust my singleness and my possible marriage into his hands so if he wanted me to be married I told him you just bring that man to me and I will not be pursuing um men on my own so that's the decision I made and I do not regret it

Tony Caffey: Did you pray that the man would come as a Jehovah's Witness?

Sanja Caffey: No

Tony Caffey: Okay

Sanja Caffey: To your door never imagine that

Tony Caffey: Well you were thinking when we were dating about should I stay single should I get married and that was one of the things that both of us were processing because we do have the scripture that says First Corinthians 7. Paul encouraging people to stay single um. Things change when you get married um your relationship with the Lord changes. I think Paul alludes to that in First Corinthians 7 as well. So how many to understand I guess everybody listening what what are the benefits of being married and why did you decide to set aside singleness and pursue marriage?

Sanja Caffey: Yeah well there are a lot of benefits to being married. I think we all can agree that a life as a single person it's got its benefits. You have a lot of freedom but at the same time you know we desire that companionship that deeper level of intimacy of knowing another person having each other's back growing together through life so it appealed to me. I didn't want to get married just for the sake of being married and I've seen a lot of ladies in my sphere of friends and and so forth um kind of idolized marriage and then get married hastily and then you know either end up divorced or having a lot of problems or losing their fire for the Lord so I did not want that to happen to me. And I wanted to if I were to get married to be married to someone who will spur me on spiritually to be better than I was on my own and the the two of us together could accomplish more for the Lord and his kingdom than me on my own and so that's that's the way I prayed and I left it in the Lord's hands yeah

Tony Caffey: There are benefits. We do have this command from the Bible to be fruitful and multiply. You know Adam was created and he couldn't find that as there that that helper and so God created a special helpmate for him so we do have that pattern of goodness that comes with marriage and we're able to obey the command to be fruitful to multiply. There is certainly companionship. I think in the way that the Lord brought you and I together I don't know there is kind of strengths and weaknesses there's ways that we complement one another. I tend to be very driven and passionate and and you tend to be more relational. I can be very idealistic you can be more practical in the way that you approach things. Is that true?

Sanja Caffey: Yes

Tony Caffey: Um as parents you know I think we're pretty stereotypical in the sense that I'm the dad I do the the fathering and can be tough on our son and you can be more gentle not always but you can be the one who's more maternal in the way that you care for him. And and so that's good those that's the way that the Lord has balanced our personalities for fruitfulness.

Sanja Caffey: Yeah I think when you get married to a person that is different from you which is always the case. I mean there will be some challenges to figure those things out but what I love about marriage is that you sharpen each other as iron sharpens iron and those rough edges are smooth over and those places of making complacency or you know weakness can be built up by the spouse who has those strengths. So it's like a principle of synergy um as long as you lean into each other and work as a team and partnership rather than you know trying to derail each other or use each other

Tony Caffey: Yeah there's a lot of there's a lot going on. We I think we have a compatibility that the Lord has blessed but um you know marriage is very much a sanctifying institution. You've got to die to self. I have been tasked with loving you as Christ loves the church. That's no small thing. That's a challenge to be like Christ in that way. You are challenged to be like Christ and the way that you submit to the husband as Christ admits to God the father. That's the way in which both of us enact this Christ imitation in our marriages and that that requires us to empty ourselves of selfishness and pursue the Lord. There's also cross-cultural elements and in play. Men are different than women no surprise there. We um we actually are a cross-cultural relationship because if people don't know you're from Croatia. I'm from Texas I'm from America and I had a professor once that said he was married to a lady from China who had naturalized in the in the states and everybody was commenting on his cross-culture well you're in a cross-cultural relationship and he said all marriages are cross-culturality because you have a man and a woman and they're different and yet that's part of the beauty of it. You have to die to self in order to help the other one to flourish and there's there there is synergy in that and there is just a beautiful empowering thing that takes place when we do that

Sanja Caffey: Yes but as you mentioned earlier it's also a lot of dying to self and desire to have it your way and thinking your way is the only way or the best way. So the marriage definitely challenges that and that's a good thing because God has called us to be humble and teachable and to keep growing and changing in the likeness of Christ. And so when those sharp edges are exposed by your spouse you have a choice whether to surrender to the Lord's work in the holy spirit's conviction in your life brought about by your spouse or somebody else or you can you know resist it and then that creates issues in your marriage. Then you add kids to the mix which is even more challenging

Tony Caffey: Kids are sanctifying right?

Sanja Caffey: Oh yeah right.

Tony Caffey: Kyle can I get an amen from the from the peanut gallery back here? Um yeah and I guess too if if I were to add anything to to what you just said in the way in which you go through the trials of life together too you you this is one of the benefits of marriage. You know if one falls down someone's there to pick them up and we've had moments in 22 years of marriage where you've had low moments and struggles and I've been there to help you along through it and vice versa. I remember probably one of my lowest days is uh remember when I failed that German test and I was so frustrated and I just missed out on a job opportunity. I was really excited about and I was probably the lowest I had ever been. I was what two thousand eight Alistair was probably six months old and you uh you really helped me through that time and we're kind of you know a rock for me moving forward even pointing me towards the Lord and you know things have uh Gone the other direction at times as well throughout our marriage

Sanja Caffey: I remember um a period of oppression that I went through that lasted several years and Tony was observing that and I think you felt helpless but um I remember you steadily challenging me you know to put my eyes on Christ and they have slipped from the Lord and I have been spending a lot of time just focused on the news and on bad things going on in the world and rather than spending time immersing myself in God's word renewing my mind reminding myself of who Christ is and and who I am and so that was uh that was kind of a turning point for me. The Lord has used you to kind of shake me up and out of that wallowing in that downward spiral and to challenge me to to get in God's word and that's really made a huge difference for me so thank you

Tony Caffey: Yeah it's something I say all the time preaching now you can agree or disagree with this is my wife has been married to four different men and they've all been me true or false? As we've looked back on 22 years

Sanja Caffey: It's true. I mean that's that's very um a very good thing to think about as you think over your marriage or possibility of being married is that you will continue changing and solo your spouse as you go through different seasons of life. When I met Tony I was a businesswoman and I wanted to be a successful businesswoman and be rich and I had all those kinds of goals and successful and then I married Tony and um I became a wife and then God challenged me even to surrender my goals for his glory and his kingdom um which was different

Tony Caffey: I don't know and became a mom

Sanja Caffey: And then I became a mom yes. And then I became a pastor's wife and so I have changed as well in a lot of different ways and of course you mature as you go through different experiences uh good and bad through life and so have you. There was a time when you were the primary Breadwinner for our household as I was working through Seminary and then that totally switched when I took a pastorate and you stayed home with Alistair um and we you know we keep coming back to the Covenant of marriage that we entered into December 16 2000 and and that's been the convictional um commitment that we've that we have held on to throughout our marriage and that's been something we promised before the Lord and and um have stood by it so yeah

Tony Caffey: What was your best year with and married to me no don't answer that. Let's let's move on this last one right? It's always the last one.

Sanja Caffey: It has gotten better yeah

Tony Caffey: And we have had good years. I guess as we've aged and we've grown more dependent on one another which I guess is that I remember somebody sharing a theory once that it was a pastor who talked about some of the older people in his congregation he said as they get into 40 50 years of marriage they start to look like each other and I I don't know I guess as a pastor I've observed that as well. Even their mannerisms seem to be the same and they finished finish each other's sentences and they they that simpatico is just so deeply uh in entwined in their being. So I think we've we've probably headed that direction in our 22 years. What are some of the challenges that people experience in marriage? What are some challenges that we've experienced in marriage?

Sanja Caffey: Well um the first challenge I had was um setting my affections more on my husband than on the Lord. It's like that shift has happened where it's like my relationship with the Lord suffered and I realized eventually that he has become my idol and it was not satisfying me. It was making me more upset and maybe tight fisted about how you were spending your time and.

Tony Caffey: Yeah

Sanja Caffey: And so I had to release that to the Lord and just go back to my first love knowing like marriage is temporary but our relationship with with God is eternal. We're not guaranteed another day on this Earth and yet but the Lord he'll never leave us nor forsake us and no matter what you go through in life you will always have him so it makes sense to nurture that relationship. So that was at my first challenge. We had some other challenges as well.

Tony Caffey: We did and it's funny that you mentioned the idolatry thing because I think that is maybe especially kids that grow up in a Christian context they can idolize marriage or their spouse or children or the prospect of having children. We've dealt with issues of infertility and walked through that together. We uh I can't remember the pastor who said it but he said something along the lines of when you put your kids above the Lord you put them at risk. When you put your spouse above the Lord you put them at risk. That's when you make your spouse your Messiah or you're I mean that's not fair to her that's not fair to him. God has to be God.

Sanja Caffey: Yeah nobody can live up to that absolutely.

Tony Caffey: And so we've had those moments where we've had to okay we love each other. We we have affection for each other. There's that First Corinthians 7 thing is real like some of the affections that you had for the Lord now you're you're some some of your heart goes to your your spouse but your your identity and your focus and your priority needs needs to always stay on the Lord or else you put yourself in a dangerous place put your marriage in a dangerous place good. Well we have done a fair amount of premarital counseling over the years wouldn't you say? We always start with like who is what is a man? That's a good that's a good place to start in today's world. Who is the man who is the husband who is the wife and what's their role biblically and it you know we've walked lots of couples dozens of couples through that but I would say probably the number one thing that that gets worked out in premarital counseling is how to deal with conflict wouldn't you say? I mean that's the session we typically do six sessions and that's the third session and that's the one that's the most memorable for the people that we have counseled. So uh yeah why is this helpful? We're going to walk through just a rule sheet of 17 things you should never do in marriage so get ready. Um but why why is this such a struggle you think for some people for men and women both?

Sanja Caffey: We do have a hard time communicating and understanding each other and sometimes marriages can go for decades with these ruts that have been created through unhealthy behaviors. You know that could have been resolved early on but bad habits.

Tony Caffey: Yeah. Maybe things that we have observed in our homes growing up or something we've picked up or just something that stems from our sinful nature. Yeah. You know nobody wants to be told you're wrong or I don't know. Yeah it was funny when we do premarital counseling we every time we go through it we're like boy I needed to hear that again work on number six.

Sanja Caffey: Oh yeah. The benefit of walking other couples through premarital counseling and then we're like you know what we need to do better with this especially if we're going to teach this to other people so uh yeah.

Tony Caffey: Let's just go through this list and we can talk about it so 17 things you should never do in marriage. So the first one is don't raise your voice at your mate. Don't yell. That's a very primitive way of communicating um yes. By the way we're getting all of this from Tommy Nelson. He did a series called maximum marriage that really benefited us and I've used for premarital accounting and he would make the statement you know dogs bark and cats hiss and humans yell. It's a primitive way in which you can talk down another person and uh boy that that habit can form easily can it in marriage?

Sanja Caffey: Yeah and you and I experienced that. I mean my home growing up was pretty much the opposite of all of these 17 things and so naturally I thought you know with all the teaching that I have received over the years um Bible teaching and observing other couples that it would come naturally for me to not do those things and yet I remember when Tony did something I didn't like or I felt like I wasn't heard. I started raising my voice at him and I'll never forget you know his face just took this the face of hurt and shock and and he said you know Sanja that really hurts me when you talk like that and um and you know this it yelling never resolves anything. It never makes the other person think oh yeah well you know what was I thinking you know they just get more upset and start yelling back. It escalates the situation and it's best to avoid it at all cost so thankfully I don't think we've ever done that since and I really appreciate you pointing that out to me early on.

Tony Caffey: We might have raised our Voice once or twice at Alistair maybe I'll have to interview him at some point in the future. Uh rule number two don't put your hands on your mate in anger. So um obviously that's an issue and and marriages where you have uh abuse and you have physical um limits that are broken so that can go both ways and generally men towards women but also women back towards men. Thirdly don't call names you know don't call your spouse stupid idiot Blockhead numbskull you know which. I mean it's funny if you're watching you know the Three Stooges but it's not funny in marriage when that gets carried away. So um yeah number four don't walk away. Don't um you know leave a conflict or um freeze a person out I guess so uh like the silent treatment.

Sanja Caffey: Silent treatment.

Tony Caffey: Yeah resolve to resolve issues. The Bible says don't let the sun go down on your anger. And um now there I guess I should qualify that there are moments where you need to like you know get step outside cool off. There have been some moments where we've been tired at night and we've said let's just deal with this in the morning and then good night's sleep the next day we wake up and we're like I'm sorry. I'm sorry that was silly and so we have had those moments. You should definitely not talk about serious issues or try to resolve conflict when you're both tired or angry. You know it takes some time cool off pray and then come together.

Tony Caffey: Yeah so don't walk away. Don't don't freeze a person out. Don't make them walk on eggshells. A lot of passive aggressive behavior can be very destructive in marriage. Number six don't get historical. That is so Tommy Nelson which uh yeah what does that mean? It means bringing up past offenses right?

Sanja Caffey: Tommy Nelson he's so funny but he said yes dear you did it in 1952 you know it's like oh I just keep bringing up that old stuff instead of forgiving and letting it go. I think when you have a situation you need to address you should stick with that thing that recent thing that has happened and don't bring like 50 other things into the situation into the conversation because you just overwhelm each other. So deal with that one thing once that's resolved you can move on to the next thing.

Tony Caffey: Yeah good. Number seven don't give excuses in the light of pain. So men are horrible at this. You know the reason you hurt deer is because XYZ and you know like the wife's gonna say oh thank you so much for telling me why I heard now I don't hurt anymore. You know they just need to listen. You need to listen yeah. Men men can be bad listeners and can try to you know force a resolution where maybe there just needs to be a processing of of the the emotional struggle that a wife is going through or a man's going through quite honest. Sure. Number eight don't turn things around so uh yeah what does that look like? It looks like let's say I'm you're saying Sanja I you know you talked you said something. Yeah that hurt me hurt my feelings and I said well yeah well you hurt my feelings yesterday and you know men and women never do that in marriage right? Yeah.

Sanja Caffey: So instead of like dealing with that issue right and resolve it instead of just blame shifting and yeah good.

Tony Caffey: Number nine don't interrupt them. So uh this is another problem that men typically have. A wife is processing her hurt and the husband is like uh-huh get to the end so we can move on or you know um trying to put words into your mouth or or finish your sentences in the negative way instead of just being a good listener and yeah. So when I was little so I I have a bit of ADHD just for everybody watching to know when I was little my mom used to grab my face and force me to look at her. That was the only way she could keep me from you know you know so uh there have been you've never done that grab my face but there's moments when you've been like okay look here. Focus don't be distracted let's and I've had to intentionally uh focus and not not try to speed it up or move on to something else.

Sanja Caffey: Yes yeah. Okay number ten don't use the kids as the jury right?

Tony Caffey: Yes making the kids adjudicate some conflict you have don't do that to your kids. Did you see what your father did yeah yeah?

Sanja Caffey: I mean that's how kids grow up and want to leave the house like ASAP. It teaches the kids to to manipulate the parents for their own good and I know because I've done it when I was a kid you know and you don't want that you want to be unified yeah. Present a unified front.

Tony Caffey: Uh you need it when they get older you better you better be on the same page and learn how to resolve conflict on your own not involving other people in it. Yeah. Number 11 don't argue in front of the kids. So there'll be moments when you're like all right let's put a movie on for junior. Let's go work through this because this is going to take some time and um yeah that's been a good habit for us not that we haven't worked through some things I think in Alistair's presence. There have if we've been able to talk through things and actually. I mean looking back over our life I think sometimes it's beneficial to kind of model what healthy conflict or and resolution can look like so it's not always bad for the kids to observe that but uh especially if it's something involving the kids yes.

Sanja Caffey: But when you say argue I mean I assume like Angry you gotta you get a knot you gotta untangle yeah yeah.

Tony Caffey: You're better served to do that in private and then come back yes. It's not it's not like you're pretending you know you might even tell the kids like Mom and Dad we need to go work something out so by the time you're done watching Aladdin we'll we'll figure this out. Number 12 don't talk about in-laws that's a good rule of thumb right? That's your problem dear the womb from whence you sprung. Try to avoid that kind of talk. It's amazing how much that comes up isn't that? We've dealt with that quite a bit in premarital stuff because you'll have parents some parents that have just dysfunctional relationships or that metal in the lives of their kids and you know um you you need to be careful about when you marry into a family. You don't just marry that person you marry their family. They're going to be a part of your life forever. So for me that involves family members and another uh country and another continent. For you that's my my family and Texas so yeah.

Sanja Caffey: Yeah A good rule of thumb is for the Natural Born um person to handle that. If there's anything that needs to be addressed you know have that person talk to their parents and not the in-law. So if I have issues with my parents or we have issues with my my parents then I would be the one addressing them rather than Tony because they're more likely to forgive me than true. You know for the things that and we've had to deal with some of those kinds of things.

Tony Caffey: Number 13 don't get sarcastic. You know don't use sarcasm to hide what you're really trying to say or to be. That's a big one because it's rude.

Sanja Caffey: You know we sometimes value sarcasm. My country especially I was very sarcastic growing up and it's kind of like a I don't know a desirable trait. Uh however I've realized it can hurt that it can really hurt people and I've heard people making sarcastic comments about them kind of ingest but there's always a little bit of Truth in it and so when I saw that decided that's not Godly that's not right you know because you if it hurts somebody you should avoid it.

Tony Caffey: Yeah. Number 14 don't talk negatively outside the home. So don't run down your wife at the you know at the golf course with your golf buddies or vice versa because I think there's a way in which your heart really is shaped by your words and so if you're it's it's hard to respect somebody at home who you're constantly talking bad about outside that's going to influence the way that you interact with that person so we've we've tried really hard with that to not now there's times when you you need to process something or pray through something but and we've brought up issues in small group but that's don't use your small group or small group breakout time to just run down your spouse that's not going to be helpful for your marriage.

Sanja Caffey: Yes yeah. Your words should uh edify and not tear down and there's a proverb that says a wise woman built her house but the foolish one tears it down with her own hands and uh or with her own mouth even and I've seen that in the workplace and with other ladies. They're constantly talking about about their their spouses and how they can't get this right or that or how they're you know calling them names and things it's just not good. You need to respect one another and show honor.

Tony Caffey: Good. So 15 don't use sex as punishment. Freezing out your spouse for months on end that can be really painful in the context of a marriage. Number 16 don't fail to Listen by Body Language. You know the kind of like oh passive aggressive ways that we can communicate to one another and then finally don't harden yourself or refuse to change. You know we are committed as Christians in marriage to sanctification and to growing and part of that involves the marital relationship and our love for each other and the commitments we make to one another so yeah. So that's the list of 17 that have served us well and we've used it quite a bit with pre-marital counseling and then marital counseling as well so thanks Sanja.

Sanja Caffey: Yeah. Anything else kind of closing thoughts on marriage and the benefits of it and maybe some some things to avoid uh in terms of conflict in marriage? Well we kind of covered a lot here what to avoid. I mean I guess what I want to say is that marriage is a wonderful thing. It is um it can be very beneficial to your life um this can be overwhelming. You know hearing all of these things and you're thinking like I have a tendency to do to do like 15 out of B17 and how am I going to do all that? It's just you know you can't do it. Well you can't do it all at once and you can't do it on your own but with the help of the holy spirit inside of you and maybe some accountability you can work on these and and really get a lot better health in your marriage. It's worth it to give it a a good effort. Marriage you know take some work. You can't just get married and then expect I will never change the other person has to change that never works. Both spouses need to be willing to constantly confess their sin to one another and forgive and repent and do it over and over again and grow together. I think over the last 22 years we have gotten closer and closer as we did that process over and over again so yeah.

Tony Caffey: Thank you Sanja.

Sanja Caffey: Thank you.

Tony Caffey: Appreciate it yeah. So that's our podcast this time for theology in action. For more theology in action podcast you can go to our website bbvf.org. We also did a podcast on marital diversity within the church bodies singleness and also marriage and how we can love each other in the church and pray for one another so let me encourage you to access that. Stay tuned for more theology in action episodes like this one and you can access those online or wherever you get your podcast. See you next time.